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Old 29-11-2019, 07:15   #1
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1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Good day! Planning to rebuilt my electrical & solar bank I came to the fact, that Winston 1000AH pack is foolly booked for 1/2 year ahead(in Europe). 700AH is available.
Make it sence to go for 2 packs combining them in parallel/series and getting 12V 1400AH power bank ? Of cause, it's more money...But, counting all together (inverter,solar,controller,appliances etc) not dramatic. It weights about the same as 1000AH (6 kilos more). I have space to located it - will fit my existing bank storage. It will be huge amount of amp/hours. But..
- shall I be capabale to refeed it (I may locate on my ramp 4 LG Neon x360Wt pannels;I have Panda genny 4500Va,but not willing to run it day long.
- will it be much more complicated to control cells , balance them? Or, it will be about the same as 700AH pack ?
I'm trying to mesure XX times before to cut my wallet.
Thanks in advance for good advise
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Old 29-11-2019, 08:36   #2
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

In fact it's been stated that for marine use even the 700Ah size cells are not suitable, as in too large.

Contact Winston see what they say.
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Old 29-11-2019, 13:29   #3
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Yes,I noted the same at nordkyndesign,and considering Sinopoly 300ah 3p3s as an option
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Old 29-11-2019, 13:33   #4
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

I mean 3p4s
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Old 29-11-2019, 14:12   #5
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
In fact it's been stated that for marine use even the 700Ah size cells are not suitable, as in too large.
What is the argument here?

Paul
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Old 29-11-2019, 14:17   #6
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

There is no arguements. I asked to comment possible installation 2p4s x 700ah LiFeyPo4. And,seems like its too much power and too large for sailing
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Old 29-11-2019, 14:26   #7
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

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What is the argument here?
If you mean "why too big"?

More susceptible to wear from the extreme shocks & vibration.

180Ah should be OK in general.

But asking the specific vendor is best, some may take this into account with their design/construction of more recent models.
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Old 29-11-2019, 14:29   #8
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Since Peukert is hardly a factor with LFP, going to multiple banks is less of a problem than it is with lead.

If you do put lots of cells into one bank, parallel first at the lowest level, if easy redundancy is desired, maximum 3 strings paralleled, just two would be better.
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Old 30-11-2019, 14:20   #9
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Well, I would say too large is not a term used in electrical engineering.
Extreme shocks & vibration also need a definition as they donīt exist on a sail boat neither a catamaran.... unless You get hit by a torpedo

Getting into the subject. I like Your approach and using Nordkyn Design as a guideline for setting parameters.
Obviously there is sufficient prove that also LifePo4 batteries have a memory effect that is supported "BY FACTS" and the corresponding references that can be found here.....
Marine lithium batteries in operation | Nordkyn Design

In consequence those facts should be taken under consideration when cycling LifePo4 batteries.

As a closing statement Eric said....
Quote:
As long as you have the opportunity to recharge properly from time to time, there is no reason why memory effects shouldn’t clear easily and they do. Things become more challenging when you DON’T have the opportunity to recharge to full for very long periods and keep cycling.

I find this statement valid as a base line for the design of Your system and the only thing to be concerned about as far as the size of Your battery bank is the completed charging cycles as indicated.

You have 1440 W of solar. Taking 5 hours of sun per day as an average will give You easy 7 - 8 KW of charging per day.
Well, it might not be enough for 1400 amp as it also will not be enough for 1000 amp but for sure it will be more then enough to charge 700 amp as You never should discharge the battery to 100%.
Now the real question would be.... How many watts/amp hours of Your charging capacity are You actually using every day ?
Even if You use less then 7 KW per day I still like the idea of the 1400 amps.
What I like about a big capacity house bank.
Itīs not only abundance of the system for the rainy days. It also allows me to run all my consumers through the inverter without the need of running the generator or at least I decide when to run the generator.

I also like the Winston batteries. I would start with.....
https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-12V-...onitoring.html
and see how far it gets me.
Adding another 700 amp is a piece of cake.
What I really like about this BMS is.... itīs very flexible, simple and DIY friendly. The components are considerable cheap and keeping a few control boards for spares on board is not an issue. I can always trouble shoot and fix it myself. So far I have not heard any complaints about this set up.

Furthermore I would prefer the 2 x 700 amp to the 1 x 1000 amp
In a 4s 2p you always have a 2nd battery in case one shuts down or fails.
However I would never use more then 2p as some recommend. Every battery needs control. As those batteries last many cycles when cared for properly on the flip side I always think the longevity of the BMS components in the marine environment is still a big question.

As a side note..... I would consider selling the Panda Gen and go for a Polar DC Gen.
My reasons You can find here.....
https://polarpower.com/products/dc-a...tors/ac-vs-dc/

Mmm, sexy CAT))) plenty of space to play
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Old 30-11-2019, 15:41   #10
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

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Extreme shocks & vibration also need a definition as they donīt exist on a sail boat neither a catamaran.... unless You get hit by a torpedo
What a crock.

Such forces are **much** greater than in a land vehicle.
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:35   #11
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Warrior,I like your point of view. But,as John advised,I've contacted Winston. The answered:" we don't reccomend cells in parallell connection. ..We recommend batteries in series connection due to it will have a better consistency.
The internal weight of large batteries won't increase.
All the battery types have the same performance. The only reason that cause the bad performance is that the batteries are misused, be overcharged or overdischarged."
So,...they(Winston) advise to go for large cells(like 1000Ah) in series. Nordkyn worns not to follow... Hard to decide. By the way, 1000Ah is not available now at ev-power-"fully booked" for Jan and March... I think,I'll decide for a middle: 400Ah 2P2S counting 800 Ah. I will be capable to recharge it mostly with solar. As for the usage,I m willing to follow some pioneers who had switched to induction cook top snd removed propane
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:43   #12
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Polarpower DC is interesting way
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Old 07-12-2019, 15:25   #13
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

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Originally Posted by YARGESOL View Post
But, as John advised,I've contacted Winston. They answered: " we don't recommend cells in parallel connection. ..We recommend batteries in series connection due to it will have a better consistency.
The internal weight of large batteries won't increase.
All the battery types have the same performance. The only reason that cause the bad performance is that the batteries are misused, be overcharged or overdischarged."
So, ...they(Winston) advised to go for large cells (like 1000Ah) in series.
Did they advise that knowing specifically the bank was to be installed on a small boat?

Did they give any upper Ah limit for that usage?

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/w...t_73438490.jpg
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:43   #14
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

She (Hannah -Winaton999)didn't indicate the max Ah size. Paste here:"To get 12V90ah battery bank, how about choose our 1000Ah battery, we don't recommend batteries in parallel connection.

If you choose 1000Ah batteries, you just need 4pcs of it, it is more convenient.

Thanks.
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Best regards , 致崇高敬礼,祝商祺!

Hannah Yap 叶银燕
..........................
Date: 2019-12-04 13:36
To: winston999
Subject: Re: Fw: LIFPO4 cell size advise
Thank you very much for quick reply,xiexie! I trust Winston experiance. 400AH will not be enough,due to I m planning to put 5kw inverter and induction cook top. Can I connect 300AH 3 parallel 4series in order to get 900AH12V? Or,better 400AH 2parallel 4 series?
Regards
Vladimir

ср, 4 дек. 2019 г., 5:48 winston999@thundersky-winston.com <winston999@thundersky-winston.com>:
Dear Vladimir,

Glad to receive your E-mail.

Our company has 21 years history of producing batteries. We are engaged in the development, production and sales of storage batteries for electric vehicles, boats and energy storage powers stations. Our main products are rare earth lithium rechargeable power batteries.

According to your information (about 300 AH from solar source and 400 AH from generator), we recommend you use our 400Ah battery, you need a 12V battery bank? Extra capacity won't have a bad impact on the battery life. It doesn't matter with 80% DOD, you just need to keep the voltage of every battery no lower than 2.8V, charge and discharge as per attached data.

Attached data sheet of TSWB-LYP400AHA for your reference.

Thanks.
‐-----------------
And,I initially did put attention,that this is for the boat
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:08   #15
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Re: 1400AH LiFeYPO4 - make it sence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YARGESOL View Post
contacted Winston. The answered:" we don't recommend cells in parallel connection. ..We recommend batteries in series connection due to it will have a better consistency.
All the battery types have the same performance. The only reason that cause the bad performance is that the batteries are misused, be overcharged or overdischarged."

So,...they(Winston) advise to go for large cells(like 1000Ah) in series. Nordkyn warns not to follow... Hard to decide.

I think,I'll decide for a middle: 400Ah 2P2S counting 800 Ah. I will be capable to recharge it mostly with solar.

As for the usage,I m willing to follow some pioneers who had switched to induction cook top and removed propane
"We recommend batteries in series connection due to it will have a better consistency"
Yeah, Better Consistency, another one of those highly scientific terms of talking and not saying anything. The interpretation leaves lotīs of room for all kinds of confusion and endless discussions, especially dangerous for people that might not be well enough informed and seeking orientation.
I right out refuse terminology where facts can be bend to one side or the other. In the marine vessel industrie with life threatening situations and insurance claims in the middle this is not acceptable. Therefore I base all my considerations only on spec. sheets and well supported documents according to international standards and practice. Of course anybody is free to think and do as he wants but in general I find this a healthy approach on a vessel exposed to highly unstable conditions like the weather and salty oceans and I recommend it to everybody for achieving the desired results.
To give an example:
Nš1 we don't recommend cells in parallel connection. ..We recommend batteries in series connection due to it will have a better consistency.

Nš2 All the battery types have the same performance. The only reason that cause the bad performance is that the batteries are misused, be overcharged or over discharged."
In my world 1+1=2 and something here does not add well. This is controversial and will never ever hold up to best practice of any technical documentation in the marine industrie.
Where are the docs to support either one or the other ?
Either all battery types are the same... I suppose by that we are talking about the Winston LifePo4 chemistry ? and specs used for structural values according to size of cell ?
or they are not all the same depending on what ????
Up to date I have not seen any docs that clearly support statement Nš1
However Winston uses the same approved and documented spec. according to international standards for manufacturing all their batteries of this type.
In ref to nordkyndesign I can find info on size of capacity in regards to cycling that we discussed but I was reading again. In ref to cell block configuration there are pros and cons, usually for small size, big size, usually for pleasure, for comercial.
I am not aware of any incidents arising from isolated cell failure within a bank on a marine DIY system. This doesn’t mean it couldn’t possibly happen......
Then there is the physical cell size that conflicts with cell block consideration for bigger systems.
In practice, lithium banks of about 200Ah are easily capable of supporting yachts with an electric refrigeration system and auxiliary loads in the mid-latitudes and it is very difficult to present a valid case for installing more than 300-400Ah on a sensibly outfitted pleasure craft. Some, however, are fitted out and operated as if they were permanently tied to the power grid.
Well, here I think we are talking about different animals.

Of course all pros and cons are valid but not sufficient to move me towards one or the other end.
I choose the one that is more user friendly and of course the additional induction cooking is a total separate story besides the AirCon
Help me. Did it escape my attention ? Is there anything that really should incline / limit me to one side or the other besides my desire to make a user friendly design and taking advantage where ever it benefits me ?
Now itīs up to You which route You wanna take for Your decisions.
I would be very happy to examine if somebody can come up with some serious docs but till then I am not willing to accept this " eat it and donīt question the menu " ... and very much less on forums where such statements are made from people where I sometimes canīt trace the origin of the info or of persons that are not capable to produce documents to support the limits.
So maybe I missed this documentation. Please convince me

Yes, I agree itīs kind of hard to decide. I "guess" the issue is about 2 separate independent packs of 4 cells in series each with itīs own BMS and then connected in parallel instead of one pack with 8 cells, connecting 2 in parallel and then to series in 4 . Has the advantage if one BMS goes in failure mode and shuts down You still have the other unit fully functioning with itīs own BMS.
However I prefer the 2P4S configuration. I am on the conservative side and for me the main object is to protect my expensive batteries.That means if something goes wrong in 1 cell there is always the other in parallel that keeps the voltage of the pack in line and going and as long as there is a cell board on each cell the rest of the battery is not in danger.
Disadvantage.... in case of BMS failure I have no power.... but here is why I like the 123 Smart system. I have spares and I can fast and easy replace. Additional I would install a digital meter on each cell for visual. So with one look I know whatīs going on. Either one of the cell boards needs to be replaced or the main board or a cell has gone bad but for sure my other cells are safe because I have no power. With those simple and cheap boards even a person that is not a top notch electronics can fix the problem himself by just replacing simple and cheap parts and he will not have to go to the next marina and not be dependent on some kind of funky patch in a location where a mystery closed black box will be repaired most likely by some exotic technicion expert of the marimafia that has no OEM spares and on top of that for the price of gold to get You back and out of the marina with more additional expensive daily costs and the forced interruption to my destination with a most likely loss of my weather window.
Now compare.... letīs asume in one of the two individual packs one cell goes bad and FOR WHATEVER REASON the electronics fail to detect due to the salty flavors etc. You wonīt notice because the other pack is still functioning correctly. You might lose the whole other pack and who knows what ? if the BMS is not functioning like it should and shuts the pack down. Now also Your discharge C rate has substantially increased. And once You notice the pack is down then You will have to be very knowledgeable when You open the mystery black box. Of course now a complete spare BMS would be the easy answer for a quick fix in this situation but that would be more expensive and till You finally have it connected You canīt know for sure. Till this moment You donīt know if just a cell went bad or if a cell went bad due to failure of the BMS.

Now I really wanna see a serious doc regards to......
We recommend batteries in series connection due to it will have a better consistency.
..... that will make me lose all the advantages of my design and even then I will still evaluate the Pros and Cons.

Of course there are many ways to monitor this whole process with electronics and some insist they are safer to failure then the human being. Well, when it comes to safety of my expensive Lithium batteries I will always have my reservations.
Hahaha, I trust more in myself and have more faith in my instincts.
As You mentioned... the only thing of real critical concerns is overcharge or over discharge
Well, I guess from this point on we could start an endless discussion.

You mentioned induction cooking. I am all in and specially on a boat. There are the issues with propane safety, eliminating an entire energy system with itīs corresponding monitoring and costs of replacements, there is no repair only replacement or most likely somebody could be dead or the boat is on fire ? ..... and the volts and amps of E power result in a very clean installation with clear specs and parameters to follow .....?
However there are also a few things that should be considered. As induction cookers are another big additional and continuous energy consumer You better wanna make sure there is always enough juice.
Unfortunately I have no real life experience with induction cooking but I do know that passionate cooks want more then one )))) Hahaha, whats the equivalent word for Flame / Burner ?
AT THE SAME TIME !!
Now this part is a lot more electric then with the good old propane bottle. There are things like efficiency but there are no such term for saving energy. The steak takes itīs time and is either raw or well cooked. The veggies go on a separate platform and a delicious sauce might be a whole other galaxy.
I think at this point I would also want to include the water heating in my future up grade electric considerations and next stage would be climate control beside all the other high demand consumers like washing machine, the usual windlass and the valuable watermaker.
As to the size of Your battery I would still go with the 700 amp pack for a starter and see how far it getīs You.
How much energy is one burner of induction cooking and how much more will it be if You use more then one burner at the same time ? = relation of discharge capacity of battery to demand of induction cooking ? + peak demands when running same time with other high demand consumers ?
With 2x 4S packs of 400 amp batteries+2 BMS You might soon end up with individual packs of 3x4S to upgrade to 1200 amps+3 BMS or more ??
With my proposed design You will still have one compact unit of 1x4S of 700 amps batteries+ 1 main board and 3 balancing boards and upgrading to 2P4S to 1400 amps = 1 main board and 7 balancing boards.

Your choice

But of course all of this wonder is only posible with enough charging capacity and in GREEN language that most likely means solar power.
Your profile says You are located on the Med close to Barcelona. Here some basics for considerations.

How many watts is a square meter of sunlight?
Ref Google: At Earth's average distance from the Sun (about 150 million kilometers), the average intensity of solar energy reaching the top of the atmosphere directly facing the Sun is about 1,360 watts per square meter (aprox.10.76 square feet), according to measurements made by the most recent NASA satellite missions.
Well, in Cadiz itīs a stunning 1.892 watts. This number showed up when UNI Solar introduced their amorphous flexible solar panels for industrial use in the EC. I donīt know the numbers for Your region but for Your area I would estimate 1.600 watts upwards. The skies over the Med are not as clear and more hazel. I guess it is because of the strong winds in the Street of Gibraltar. As You can observe there are also substantial differences in skies without clouds. So it will also dependo on where You wanna go sailing.
Of course now it all depends on how efficient Your solar panels can harvest this energy.
You mentioned the 4 x LG NEON
365 watts, 36,7V, Efficiecy 21,1%
@ 66,93 inch x 40 inch
I guess those are the panels You are talking about
http://www.lg-solar.com/downloads/sp...NR_60cells.pdf

There are also the LG NEON 2 > LG410/415N2W-V5
415 watts, 41,8 V, Efficiency 20%
@ 79,68 inch x 40,31 inch
https://www.lgenergy.com.au/uploads/...19ba55c638.pdf

The other day I recommended
Sunpower SPR-x22-360
360 W - 59,1 V - Efficiency 22,2%
@ 61,3 inch x 41,2 inch

Sunpower SPR-x21-470
470 W - 76,2 V - Efficiencey 21,7%
@ 81,4 inch x 41,2 inch
I believe Made in USA. Unfortunately I donīt know where to get them in the EC.
Itīs not only the watts and the size. With max 41,8 panel voltage you will never be able to use a 48 V inverter unless You connect 2 panels in series. I asume You are familiar with all the effects of parallel connection in relation to shade. To know how further that could be of interest check considerations and thoughts in ref to 48 V and inverters
@

Brand New Catamaran, Lithium Bank addition
Brand New Catamaran, Lithium Bank addition - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by YARGESOL View Post
Polarpower DC is interesting way
Well, they are not cheap but till now my conclusions are going DC GEN for more efficiency then AC Gen if You wanna take full advantage of Your inverter and Lithium batteries to keep run time of Gen as low as posible which I believe is the desirable route. No required over capacity in ref to peak demands of the consumers and I also really like the feature of flexibel RPM and to just charge a battery You donīt need a stable frequence. That makes the whole story of the Gen a lot less simpler for control and less sensitive to failure. Till now I have not seen anything comparable evaluating pros and cons. As said....not cheap but if You go with the AC GEN route You need oversize to compensate peaks that might be more expensive ++ all the additional cons of weight, size, higher operating costs and much more fuel consumption.
What I donīt have 100% concluded yet ???
In case of a DC Gen the charge will go direct to the battery.
In Case of an AC Gen it will be the battery charger on AC first and then DC to the battery. I think at first sight itīs obvious but are there some hidden issues and details ?
What do You think ?

Back to NO or low GEN run time hours: As a rough speculation I think with Your solar charging capacity this will be achieved as long as the AirCon is not involved. You could make some 8-9000 watts on good days. Watch the shading !

Using a Victron combi inverter with charger and adding a 110 V AC battery charger and You are good for all shore power world wide. With Victron POWER ASSIST in tandem with Your big Lithium batteries You should be able to ride all shore power surprises. In case of a AC 110 V installation on Your boat flip the input voltage.

Leaves the issue with the wire size if You have a 220 V system installed on Your boat. As AC 110 V come with bigger wire DIA You are also good for 220 V but with 220 V installation You wanna watch when using or mix high demand AC 110 V consumers.

&
How to best taking advantage of Your alternators and integrate in the system when motoring. Also no final conclusions yet. With Your solar array capacity I was wondering if itīs worth while investing in the expensive high output alternator set up +ext. regulator+multi grove pulley & belt + hassle and cost installation and instead just limit the stock alternators to prevent overheating and spending the money on the PolarPower ?
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