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Old 14-02-2018, 08:28   #121
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

Regarding charge regulation on alternators. LFP have higher operation voltages than Lead Acid batteries, alternators charge between 13.6 and 14.2V. A empty big 400-500Ah AGM house battery bank can draw also lots of power in low voltage when bulk charging - up to 100 Amps and more, especially if you also turn on your inverter, the alternators can be fried too if the regulator and some fuses do not protect them.
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Old 14-02-2018, 08:30   #122
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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For LiFePO4 it is true, you should not charge below 0, but
you still can discharge.

LiFeYPO4 can be charged and discharged sub-zero.
I would not be taking chances on that latter, treat Winstons just like regular LFP.

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
There are some implementations with a heat mat under the cells to heat them up using their own power before start charging.
That is how I'd go. If not within the living space:

An insulated box, inexpensive thermostat driving silicon pads with built in high-temp cutout, get them going (not necessarily off their own current) say 12 hours before starting cycling in extreme conditions.

KISS, some manual switching and checking before charging.
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Old 14-02-2018, 09:21   #123
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
I spoke with some BMS developers and also users about it.
For LiFePO4 it is true, you should not charge below 0, but
you still can discharge. There are some implementations
with a heat mat under the cells to heat them up using their
own power before start charging.

LiFeYPO4 can be charged and discharged sub-zero. But also they
are not perfect in this matter. The internal cell resistance rises
on cold cells dramatically, so they cannot absorb so many
Amps as warm cells. The issue there is, that because of the higher
resistance, there will be also an increase of temp and if not
done carefully with lower current - it can inflate the cells
to some degree at some point. So it is safe to not bulk-charge
them as long as they freeze, start slowly and increase
current when above 0C. If you not do that, well they will
first heat up instead of charging...
You've really provided nothing to us on this subject, in regards to the lofty Chung claims you've been talking about for months, regarding sub freezing charging.

I had specifically asked for research showing this to be true and safe. Winston Chung's marketing pieces are not what I would consider legitimate sources unless he is also willing to provide the testing data, in a scientific peer reviewed manner.

He is not.

Why is he not willing to share this data, if what he claims is true, is actually true? He should be jumping up and down with press releases about this, if it really is true, but he's not. It certainly smells like a Clean Diesel Volkswagen scenario, to me.

I personally will continue to urge very strong caution on anything Winston Chung claims that it not supported by scientific research or third party research data. Sub freezing charging, of LiFeYPO4 at this point, is only supported or claimed by Chung unless you know of any actual research data that is not just marketing spin.
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Old 14-02-2018, 09:31   #124
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

[QUOTE=Maine Sail;2576952] It certainly smells like a Clean Diesel Volkswagen, to me..

/QUOTE]

What about Volvo? Have you seen what Kubota has to do to pass emmision standards on their 25+ HP industrial diesels? Funny that marinizers are claiming to meet EPA tier 4 standards without all the crap Kubota has to put on the same engines. Something smells fishy. VW and Volvo may be the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 14-02-2018, 10:02   #125
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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You've really provided nothing to us on this subject, in regards to the lofty Chung claims you've been talking about for months, regarding sub freezing charging.

I had specifically asked for research showing this to be true and safe. Winston Chung's marketing pieces are not what I would consider legitimate sources unless he is also willing to provide the testing data, in a scientific peer reviewed manner.
Please do your own research, I have not claimed to provide university research material at all, I also never mentioned Mr. Chung - I don't know him. You can ask for research of course, but I am not a research LAB nor a UNIVERSITY, I also do not do research for the Industry or the Consumer - especially not for free. So please approach universities and lab's, pay them for your specific research needs, or read some free accessible published findings yourself. I will not search material for you.



There are specs on the products, buy some, test them and prove the specs are wrong, then sue Mr. Chung... Good luck!
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Old 14-02-2018, 10:19   #126
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

Well Cat, you might be barking up the wrong tree. MaineSail is without question the most respected source of boat repair and upgrade info available. You, me, or anyone else for that matter, know more or have more experience. He does a lot of testing on his own and freely shares the results for everyone's benefit. If you are not familiar with his site, I suggest you take a look: https://marinehowto.com/
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Old 14-02-2018, 10:47   #127
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

No problem, I will check his website out.

Everybody is providing voluntarily information in a open forum like this, claiming something is wrong, specifications are marketing bla, bashing one of the market leader in the industry / and the whole technology - without proof that the spec are not met by the product is just a bad behavior - Winston is not in the forum and cannot defend themselves and I am not in the position nor do I feel the necessity to do this as a proxy.

For me it sounds like trolling.

If he is really a professional in that field - than it's even worse. First of all - sub-zero charging is not relevant for marine use, second he could make his own research and prove the specs are wrong. My feeling is, he wants to sell some boxes and bashes the competition because he fears successful DIY implementations.

I have made my verdict on the cells and will use them regardless of this comments. I am sure other will make their own conclusions too.

This bashing is very common in the industry btw., have had similar discussions with Victron , Mastervolt and lot's of the "system integrator's". They do not like the Idea of DIY solutions at all and always try to scare people to sell them the only safe solution - the LFP batteries of their own product range - including 5 year of service subscription and remote maintenance over a cloud service around the world for a small fee - pretty arrogant people.
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Old 14-02-2018, 10:55   #128
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

Constantly sniping at each other does not help anything. Give it a rest, all of you. Please!
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Old 14-02-2018, 11:01   #129
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Everybody is providing voluntarily information in a open forum like this, claiming something is wrong, specifications are marketing bla, bashing one of the market leader in the industry / and the whole technology - without proof that the spec are not met by the product is just a bad behavior - Winston is not in the forum and cannot defend themselves and I am not in the position nor do I feel the necessity to do this as a proxy.
Except, you are "providing voluntarily" information that is objectively false but writing as if it is gospel, and others are offering speculation or anecdote while making it clear that there is uncertainty.

Quote:
For me it sounds like trolling.
Some of your commentary sounds like shilling. That is, parts of it that aren't objectively wrong, like your earlier comments about electrolyte, cell construction, and market size. Each time someone has refuted your incorrect claims, you change the subject.

You have made some interesting design decisions and have a unique build that others could learn from. But you mix in so much nonsense and speculation that it undermines your credibility and the usefulness of your story.

And, when a manufacturer or a forum member makes an extraordinary claim, it is natural and appropriate to view it with skepticism until there is proof.
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Old 14-02-2018, 11:16   #130
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Constantly sniping at each other does not help anything. Give it a rest, all of you. Please!
It's actually better that we try to correct the misinformation than just let it sit there and mislead the next reader.
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Old 14-02-2018, 11:20   #131
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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My feeling is, he wants to sell some boxes and bashes the competition because he fears successful DIY implementations.
You couldn't be more wrong.

Check out his site. Here it is again: https://marinehowto.com/
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Old 14-02-2018, 11:26   #132
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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It's actually better that we try to correct the misinformation than just let it sit there and mislead the next reader.
Once or twice I can understand, but I pity anyone trying to get real useful information on LFP batteries from this thread, they'll just tune out out of annoyance, as I'm about to do. It does not matter how right you are if you belabor the point.

And on that note, I'm unsubscribing from notifications about this thread...
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Old 14-02-2018, 12:32   #133
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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I will not search material for you.


Then perhaps you should consider not making factually worded statements you can't support with actual data. There are lots of noobs who will believe what you claim. Is this fair to them if you don't know for a fact it is actually true..?

Your batteries, your choice, you could not pay me to charge my own Winston cells at sub freezing, and yes I have done extensive research and I do believe Winston battery is misleading its customers on this subject.

I hope to be proven wrong on this and based on your numerous statements on sub freeing charging, thought maybe you had some data to share.
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Old 14-02-2018, 13:14   #134
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Originally Posted by Davidhoy View Post
Once or twice I can understand, but I pity anyone trying to get real useful information on LFP batteries from this thread, they'll just tune out out of annoyance, as I'm about to do. It does not matter how right you are if you belabor the point.

And on that note, I'm unsubscribing from notifications about this thread...
There is a lot of good info here. Some factual, some speculation, some misleading, some unknown, some wrong. It's a start, not an end. In sifting thru it all, one will learn.
There is more than one way to implement LiFePO4 and not any one way will be right for everyone, or every budget, or every size bank.
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Old 14-02-2018, 13:28   #135
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Re: 1400 Ah Lithium from cells

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Once or twice I can understand
We're going to keep trying to correct it as long as it keeps coming, my friend. I hope you can find enlightenment elsewhere.
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