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Old 28-02-2007, 15:41   #1
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12v appliances

Is there really ANY difference between these so called 12 volt fridges verses standard fridges other than an Inverter is fitted.
I will have 700 amp/hours of 12 volt batteries and an 3500 watt inverter.
Why should I pay well over a thousand dollars when I can pay $300 or less and use the inverter.
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Old 28-02-2007, 15:50   #2
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Funny you say that...

I was on one of my favorite boats in the world last year (Nordhavn). I have always seen them outfitted with cold plates, but this one had a sub zero in it!!! Amazed, I asked Dennis (the salesman, great guy) why he did that?? I mean, after all, the cold plate has been renound for real cruisers and passagemakers and circumnavigators. THere are few boats build tougher than a Nordhavn. Did you hire a Sea Ray engineer??

He laughed and said their philosophy was such: If your cold plate breaks in the middle of... Tahiti, for instance, you will be sitting there a long time waiting for parts to be shipped in. If your standard houshold fridge breaks, well, most areas of the world carry parts for those (or they are near by). He said they will still put in a CP if the owner wants it, but they are putting in more and more household fridges now.

Does that answer your question? I guess you were asking if there was really a difference, and I would be suprised if there was not (as I use an Adler Barbor, not a stand-up), but I don't know that I would not save a bunch and go with a standard fridge. Your call, though. Another options would be a cold plate or A-B. But, that would require a lot more engineering.

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Old 28-02-2007, 16:21   #3
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thanks cruisingdad.
The 12 volt systems probably do have a soft start feature but with the cost of inverters coming down why not just put in a bigger one. By "cold tank" I assume you mean eutectic tank.
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:14   #4
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Concern

The big concern would be weather the fridge is 110 thus needing an invertor to run and its efficency.

I like the 12 volt adler barbar we have on Makai. Though I want to change to the plate to the wrap around panel. If the unit in discussion is 110v what happens if you genset or invertor fails. The 12 volt will continue to run off the batteries.

I just see adding one more point of possible failure. Though I like the idea of it being able to be replaced anywhere in the world that has a fridge store!
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Old 01-03-2007, 13:27   #5
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Beau,

Cold tank?? You mean cold plate? Sorry for the acronyms: CP, Cold Plate. Sea Freeze of America, Inc. - Cold Plates

Also, I am sure not advocating either one. I am just telling you trends. But let me say this too: I see Nordhavn (and excuse Dennis if you or any other Nordy's are on this site) falling into the circle of what sells versus what is really good. Am I too traditional??? Well, maybe. I like the AB system too (as long as you do not put an ice pick through it, dummy me!!), and it has served us well. There are some tricks to keeping your junk cold and keeping it efficient which I guess I could share here, but in general - household appliances should stay in the house. Many may dissagree, it is just my opinion. Is a fridge different??? I don't know. Your call. If I was in your shoes, depending on your checkbook, I would look into a AB with your Batts. I personally have 840 ah on my main bank, with about 100 on the backup/emergency - and use a AB. I doubt a household fridge will be as efficient as what you can make a box in a marine environment. Everytime you open the front door your just dropped all of your cold air. But, what is your cruising grounds? May not be worth the $$.

What is your electrical budget? Be realistic. Make sure you really wont have a problem. Remember, at 700 AH, you only have 350 useable. Are you going to run your genny every day? Every other? WHat are your cruising grounds? Long term? What are your "green" sources for power? Wind and solar array budget? I would let the answers to those questions dictate my decision for a fridge. Short of radar, chart, auto pilot, and watermaker, the fridge is the biggest draw on most boats and will likely be the biggest draw on the hook.

Just some of my thoughts.

S/V Makai,

If your genset or inverter fails, you don't have long anyways. The typical AB that is well insulated pulls about 50-60 ah/day (when you keep the lid closed) in the warmer climates. My kids are better than most, but with 4 people aboard, we get into and out of it quite a bit. I guess you could leave your main running, or something? Or, put in a CP off the main engine?? My issue with a household is the efficency more than the chance of failure. You "can" do without refrigeration if you have to, so a backup may not be one of those critical systems worth the effort???? I don't know. Each captain has to answer that him/herself.

Hope I helped. These are just my opinions, so take them as such!!!!

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Old 01-03-2007, 15:59   #6
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Effeciency is a big concern and running a relatively inefficent unit genreates loss and running it thru an invertor creates another loss.

The reason I ask or point out the extra points of failure is we had a heart Freedom 30 fail twice. So we were without 110 for that period. We don't carry a genny and when cruising we are not near a dock for months at a time. Our solar panels (480watts) supports our boat without any other input. If we depended on it for fridge or water maker or such our months of hanging around the outislands would have been shorter and driven by the needs rather than our desires.

We finally tossed it overboard, but in this case it was a luxury not a requirement.

You are absoutley correct in that each must make the decsion, but carefull thought needs to be applied as to the possible problems.
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:20   #7
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S/V Makai,

Yep, I agree with about everything you said and for the reasons you said. But, if I was just hanging out at the marina or close to major cities, would I opt for an upright if I could??? Not sure. That is not really my gig either.

We installed a Prosine 2.0 recently - but most of our experience is without an inverter. We have had a genny on both boats... but got tired this time of always kicking on the genny to have a warm cup of coffee!! It could very well be argued (as Tom Neale did, I believe) that having a inverter can save you juice for that very reason. Microwaves can heat up items quicker than you can with propane. With a good solar array and wind gen, you really can get off and stay off the grid for a long time.

Back to the thread at hand: Beau, both Makai and I prefer 12v refrigeration (which I prefer over CP, incidentally, but that is another conversation sure to raise the ire of many old salts). However, if your cruising grounds are this marina to that... well, it may not be necessary or worth the expense.

I also put a thread in place above this one on Refrigeration Conservation. Take a look at that. It has some ideas in there that can help you too.

Take care all.

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Old 01-03-2007, 16:48   #8
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Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate it.

I will be cruising in the tropics, north of Australia, no marinas or shore power will be available.

I think I will go for 700 amp hour battery bank, and a 12volt eutectic plate Ozefridge system with chest type fridge and freezer.

However I plan to use an 3,000 watt Inverter to run the homemade watermaker (using a high pressure 240 v water blaster) and a 10,000 btu air conditioner. (Occasional use only)Plus other household appliances.

Power to recharge the batteries will come from the alternator on the outboard motor plus a 120 amp Honda gasoline generator.(Christies engineering)

Any comments, please.
I also heard that inverters are only efficient when used close to there full output. Any experience?
thanks,
Beau
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Old 01-03-2007, 17:26   #9
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I cannot comment on the gas generator except this: I used one a few times (was not a liveabord at the time) and after a few nights of listening to that thing clank on the deck, I realized that it was not for me.

We used a fischer Panda 4.5KW on our last boat. It was diesel and worked well. Our current genny is a Mastervolt 3.5 whisper. I think it is probably the better of the two units.

As far as recharge, etc, you will be running that genny a long time every day or two (what, 6 hours??). What is your electrical budget? I know I asked this before, but it is important. What does your gas generator burn/hour? What is its peak and run load?

I am a fan of wind and solar power generation, but they are NOT cheap either. I think if you will give me an idea of your electrical budget, I will give you my suggestion on what you should build. But I will warn you, if you do not know me from other forums: CD's advice is free, but the stuff he reccomends is expensive!! HAHA!

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Old 01-03-2007, 18:36   #10
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Beau say's .....Power to recharge the batteries will come from the alternator on the outboard motor plus a 120 amp Honda gasoline generator.(Christies engineering)

How goes it Beau, as you know I will run a similar charge setup, but will have 2 x 90amp alternator's on my motor's which is good while running, but no good when anchored.

I had a look at the Christies Charger 2.5hp specs 5.5hp specs

And they are good, but bloody noisy.

I think you said that you were going to use a insulated box to shut it up a bit.

What about a muffler??? would this be possible.??

I was thinking more along the line of a Kipor or Honda 2 kva, which are very quiet, give out 240v if required, and hooked up to a large charger should pump out some amp's.

I will also plan on having about 500 watt's of panels up top as well, after I recover from the stroke after seeing the prices.

Dave



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Old 01-03-2007, 19:10   #11
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Talking

Hi Dave,

It was about a year ago, but I still have their business card but two guys from Caboulture were selling a sound absorbing box made from Aluminium with sound baffles inside and a 12volt radiator fan which forced air through the cabinet. They had a variety of motor and alternators that could be fitted inside, all two or four stroke petrol motors. The fan came on first and then you started the motor. Standing beside it, you could only just hear it. The box is the muffler with no extra backpressure.

Christies have agreed to make up a 6.5 HP electric start Honda or "Yonda" with a 120 -150 amp alternator including "smart charging" technology for deep cycle batteries.
Why buy a 240 volt generator and then have a battery charger to convert it.
I can't justify solar panels when petrol is $1.20 a liter.
I think I will go ahead withe 12volt fridge/freezer set from Ozefridge, I think it is hard to beat and it runs on 240 volt or 12 volt but also has water cooling as well as air cooled. I think it will do about 150 liters.

By the way where are you leaving from, Brisbane or Bundaberg. I would hate to see you caught in that cyclone off the coast. I might be about to get hold of a very cheap 50 ft Cat

Have a great time
Beau
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Old 01-03-2007, 19:24   #12
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Leaving from Aquarium Passage at Hemmant. We had custom's lined up for clearance today, but have fobbed them off until tommorrow.

Weather,.......... interesting to say the least.

Click on area's in up and down the coast on the clickable map and there is no real wind and seemingly good weather.

Queensland Weather Observation Stations

Yet Heron Island is being evacuated ????? with almost Glassy conditions.

This site Buoyweather.com Global Weather Service

let's you zoom into an area, and then click onto it to get wind and wave prediction's, which all seem OK.

I'm confused

Dave
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Old 01-03-2007, 19:47   #13
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Dave,
I wouldn't be even thinking about going anywhere right now.
The wind is very strong out from Mackay, and that bloody cyclone is intensitifying and moving south.
Why I asked about Bundaberg is that in my experience if you can get on the northern side if it continues to move south the weather can be pretty good. BUT, how do you know it will continue to move south, they have been known to double back.
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Old 01-03-2007, 19:59   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do
Leaving from Aquarium Passage at Hemmant.
We're moored in Aquarium Passage (the Penumbra).

Which boat is your mate's?
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Old 01-03-2007, 22:11   #15
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A 47 foot Cray boat outside Flannigans call the" Kiangah" just behind that rotten bucket of puss that sunk last night.

I don't stay on board as I live around the corner, but the other 2 stay and feed the mossies at night.

Dave
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