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Old 02-09-2013, 16:02   #16
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Re: 120v 10 Gauge Wire Splice

"Crimp links which have been properly re-insulated with heatshrink or self-amalgamating tape don't need to be inside a junction box".

According to the NEC all 120 volt connections are to be made in a junction box or conduit body. Connections can fail so the connection must be made where it is accessible and repairable while minimizing fire danger. Never splice AC outside of a box!

Yes there is self fusing tape but good tape such as 33+ or 88+ will fuse in time. It does not come off! Cheap tape that fails is what you get when you are not willing to pay the price. Vibrations causing wire nuts to fall off on a sailboat? Come on, now! Wire nuts torqued properly don't often back off and don't move at all when secured by tape. There are many methods of tying two or three wires together and there are better methods perhaps than the wire nut but the wire nut is universally obtainable and works well.

If this were on a piece of machinery with high levels of vibration such as motor leads I would use copper connectors such as the Kerney, wrap with cambric to prevent sticking, wrap with rubber to insulate and then wrap with 33 + to waterproof. But this is a little splice in a box on a boat.

I am a great fan of shrink and self-fusing tape, having used it all and will again at times. I am not too much a fan of the insulated connector, finding that a non-insulated connector gives a better connection, no matter what the tool used, for the tool does not have to compress the insulation to mechanically make the connection on the un-insulated connector.

I use a Sta-kon type of crimper on smaller non-insulated connectors, coat the connector with scotchkote after the crimp and then heat shrink over whole works. These connections are quite well enough insulated for 12 or 24 volts, much smaller in physical size than the insulated ones and can be color coded with the applied heat shrink.

Perhaps using adhesive shrink would be faster but I like my method and they have not failed on any marine application I have used this combination on.

Again, it is not about dogma, it's about thinking. I see way too many absolutes espoused here when the poster only understands part of the whole picture.
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Old 02-09-2013, 16:11   #17
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Re: 120v 10 Gauge Wire Splice

Now that we've re-written (or re-copied) all of the "Good and Bad Things to Do with Electrical Connections," can we get back to "What's the Best Boat to Circumnavigate or Buy Since I Want a BIG, HUGE Motorboat but I Have No Prior Boat" threads?

Thanks.
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Old 02-09-2013, 17:08   #18
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Re: 120v 10 Gauge Wire Splice

I would butt splice them with heat shrink connectors and then put 3/4" (for 10/3 wire) heat shink over the whole thing. long enough to cover the sheath on both sides. so you have a sealed, and double insulated wire again. just as a single wire would be.
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Old 02-09-2013, 17:09   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by um saudade View Post
"Crimp links which have been properly re-insulated with heatshrink or self-amalgamating tape don't need to be inside a junction box".

According to the NEC all 120 volt connections are to be made in a junction box or conduit body. Connections can fail so the connection must be made where it is accessible and repairable while minimizing fire danger. Never splice AC outside of a box!

Yes there is self fusing tape but good tape such as 33+ or 88+ will fuse in time. It does not come off! Cheap tape that fails is what you get when you are not willing to pay the price. Vibrations causing wire nuts to fall off on a sailboat? Come on, now! Wire nuts torqued properly don't often back off and don't move at all when secured by tape. There are many methods of tying two or three wires together and there are better methods perhaps than the wire nut but the wire nut is universally obtainable and works well.

If this were on a piece of machinery with high levels of vibration such as motor leads I would use copper connectors such as the Kerney, wrap with cambric to prevent sticking, wrap with rubber to insulate and then wrap with 33 + to waterproof. But this is a little splice in a box on a boat.

I am a great fan of shrink and self-fusing tape, having used it all and will again at times. I am not too much a fan of the insulated connector, finding that a non-insulated connector gives a better connection, no matter what the tool used, for the tool does not have to compress the insulation to mechanically make the connection on the un-insulated connector.

I use a Sta-kon type of crimper on smaller non-insulated connectors, coat the connector with scotchkote after the crimp and then heat shrink over whole works. These connections are quite well enough insulated for 12 or 24 volts, much smaller in physical size than the insulated ones and can be color coded with the applied heat shrink.

Perhaps using adhesive shrink would be faster but I like my method and they have not failed on any marine application I have used this combination on.

Again, it is not about dogma, it's about thinking. I see way too many absolutes espoused here when the poster only understands part of the whole picture.
I'm simply speaking from 20+ years of experience and having worked in several different countries with different electrical rules, methods and equipment.
If you don't think boats vibrate then you haven't had one with a motor or one that is trailable ;-)

Dogma doesn't enter into it but practical experience does.

Making a proper permanent joint in a cable outside of conduit or a junction box is acceptable (and common) in the countries I have worked in but as I don't have a copy of the NEC handy I'll take your word that it's not acceptable in the US.

I get the impression that your experience is limited to the US - is that right? If so your eyes may well be opened to the 'whole picture' if you get to work in another country :-)
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Old 02-09-2013, 21:14   #20
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This is absolutely not rocket science.

Wire nuts are not permitted aboard boats in accordance with ABYC Standard E-11. Wire nuts will not generally make a safe and acceptable joint when used on Type 3 marine wire as the internal spring in the wire nut tends to rip apart the fine strands of wire..

Use a good quality ratcheting crimp tool and nylon insulated double crimp butt splice and you will have a splice that will last for many, many years.
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Old 02-09-2013, 22:35   #21
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Re: 120v 10 Gauge Wire Splice

I wonít go into needless details of where I have worked over the years but I think I recall venturing outside the US a couple of times. I donít believe there is anywhere in the world that a splice is permitted in AC runs, except in the case of overhead cables in open air. Otherwise it goes in a can, no matter the splicing method.

I did not say outside of conduit. Fact is you canít splice IN a conduit for that is the classic definition of a hidden splice. And please donít confuse low voltage DC with AC circuits. There are some different rules for both and for good reasons.

Now it has been my experience that electrical codes where I worked did NOT vary all that much, for the laws of physics donít change with geography and common sense is not limited to one language or another. But what do I know, Tymadman, I bow to your esteemed knowledge in the matter. Do electrons drive on the other side of the wire there?

Yes, you have to be careful placing a wire nut on fine strand wire and I guess I bow to that point. If you have a lot of experience in doing something it becomes pretty easy to get it right but the novice can usually junk it up. But also, the novice does not usually have a decent crimp tool and ends up doing a totally lousy job on the crimped connection. Most people donít have a crimp tool with settings that do accurate and repeatable connections. I have seen more bad crimps on insulated connectors than I can count or had to fix.

I donít do things that fail prematurely or are inherently dangerous to myself or others. Any advice I give in this forum is based on that premise. To make a splice in AC outside of a box is dangerous and could lead to a burnoff that would not be contained by the box so I could not endorse it. I have no issues with many of the methods of connection as long as they are good mechanical connections and do not degrade or weather over time. I do not do bad work, I do not do dangerous work and I sure donít like doing anything more times than I have to. When my work starts crumbling around me I will reconsider all I write here, not before.
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Old 03-09-2013, 00:15   #22
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But what do I know, Tymadman, I bow to your esteemed knowledge in the matter. Do electrons drive on the other side of the wire there?
No worries mate, glad to help :-)

And no, the electrons don't drive on the other side of the wire over here but one difference is they aren't as big as the US ones ;-)
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Old 03-09-2013, 20:42   #23
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Re: 120v 10 Gauge Wire Splice

If you want to keep surveyors happy, follow ABYC: crimped insulated butts or suitable terminal blocks. And all 110v and 220 v AC connections should be inside a proper box.

um saudade, I don't know of any wire nut that's recommended by the manufacturer for joining heavy fine-stranded wire. Remember too that the spec is chosen so that the average person with average abilities can repeatedly make a safe and dependable connection (more likely with crimps than other methods), and it's easy to see after the fact that it's a good connection. You don't know the connection quality of an unknown wire-nutted joint until you remove the wire nut, and by then you've just buggered it
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:08   #24
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Re: 120v 10 Gauge Wire Splice

First off, it is your boat.

That said, the two largest standards writing organizations for pleasure craft are the ABYC and ISO, both of which specifically prohibit the use of "wire nuts".

Lastly, it is your boat.
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