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Old 24-09-2015, 17:09   #1
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Why such huge pricing differences?

Hey Everyone!

I love this board - it's like being home. By that I mean, I'm Italian, and we Italians never discuss anything - we argue, even when we agree!

I've finally decided, after much back and forth, research, potential visitors, and reality vs. dreaming (should I really buy a heavy cruiser for translant or worldwide cruising or will I, most likely, be spending the VAST majority of time on the East Coast/Carb?), that a Cat is the best choice for me.

So now comes the search and I'm finding, all things being equal, that there seem to be HUGE price differences. Please note that I said "all things being equal" Also, I'm aware of VAT - but not sure how that works, yet, as I live in a sales tax free state and will be moving any purchases, if made abroad, back to the states.

Just for illustration purposes - I know it's not apples to apples:

2015 Lagoon 380, owners version, Harel Yachts, France, US$228K
2014 Lagoon 39, owners version, Harel yachts, St. Martin, US373K

Just those differences seem incredibly significant but even more so compared to these Lagoons in the US:

2013 Lagoon 39, owners -2 cabin layout, Florida, US$428K
2004 Lagoon 380, owners version, Texas, US$267K

The '04 in Texas seems to be representative of 380's in the US - that general price range. Given that, what possible reason could there be for buying that vs. a brand new 2015 for $30K less? The '04 doesn't have anything new or rebuilt on it…granted, I'm not sure of the electronics on the 2015 but even if a whole suite of nav gear needed to be installed it still seems a very good deal…yes? Harel yachts - appears to have good reviews on this site as well.

Thanks for wading through my novella! I just wanted to include as much info as possible in order to try and get, possibly , some specifics in response.

Hope all are doing great!
Rob
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Old 25-09-2015, 04:52   #2
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

what i found out that there is no good deals. Cheap ones are cheap for reason.

Looked at lagoons in adriatic, and came clear to me that the reason for lower price is engines and saildrives are not maintained properly.

And this is serious expense.

Lightening strike makes decent price drop as well.

You get good deals only when people forced to sell ie recession.
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Old 25-09-2015, 05:09   #3
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

It's the difference in age, people with money will pay way more for new or nearly new.
I started out looking at boats that were five or less years old at first, then after running that nearly to death, started looking at older, but possibly better built boats. What I found was that if well cared for, a quality boat essentially doesn't "age" much if any at all, but due to it's age, the price is considerably lower.
What I also found was that a boat that is three years old, but neglected and or abused can be almost destroyed, the extent of damage amazed me.
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Old 25-09-2015, 05:30   #4
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trident50 View Post

2015 Lagoon 380, owners version, Harel Yachts, France, US$228K
2014 Lagoon 39, owners version, Harel yachts, St. Martin, US373K

Just those differences seem incredibly significant but even more so compared to these Lagoons in the US:

2013 Lagoon 39, owners -2 cabin layout, Florida, US$428K

Rob
Hi, Trident!

Are You 1) going to buy a cat, or just 2) curious of different numbers?

If 1) is correct and if I were you, who made above search, I would then take next PRACTICAL move and contact HY France who quoted the best (lowest price for newbuilding cat) and got their price for the boat with all necessary equipment YOU may NEED.

Having that done you will also get an undertstanding of why those other listed boats asking prices are way higher.

At the end you will also learn that as Italian resident You will be re-directed to Lagoon;s Italian Dealer and You will re-start from there.

Good luck!
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Old 25-09-2015, 10:58   #5
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Thanks for all your answers everyone!

I know the old adage about getting what you pay for - but as I said, "all things being equal" I've been "shopping" for a year now, and "equal" boats are cheaper abroad (I'm in the United States). Sometimes a little cheaper, sometimes a little more, but quite often A LOT cheaper.

As for the "difference in age" - of course. But the examples I gave are of older boats being MORE expensive than newer ones…much more in some cases.

Again, it's easy to do a search and find comparable yachts - year, make, equipment, etc…that are just cheaper in Europe and many seem to ask this question but it seems very difficult to find an answer

But I will take Steamer's advice and just write to a few dealers as it seems that's the only way to get actual pricing on new Lagoons.

Thanks again and I will post what I find out!
Rob
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Old 25-09-2015, 14:09   #6
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Hi, Trident!

Are You 1) going to buy a cat, or just 2) curious of different numbers?

If 1) is correct and if I were you, who made above search, I would then take next PRACTICAL move and contact HY France who quoted the best (lowest price for newbuilding cat) and got their price for the boat with all necessary equipment YOU may NEED.

Having that done you will also get an undertstanding of why those other listed boats asking prices are way higher.

At the end you will also learn that as Italian resident You will be re-directed to Lagoon;s Italian Dealer and You will re-start from there.

Good luck!
Do I take it then Steamer that one can only buy a new Lagoon from the dealer for the country one resides in?
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Old 25-09-2015, 14:27   #7
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

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Do I take it then Steamer that one can only buy a new Lagoon from the dealer for the country one resides in?
To my best knowledge and personal experience based on Beneteau family contacts dated back to previous century, yes, it was, and as I may expect it is still like that
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Old 25-09-2015, 15:09   #8
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Geoff/Steamer - very interesting, I would not have thought that. Hmmm…that could explain a great deal!

I will post when I more information..thank you all again
Rob
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Old 25-09-2015, 16:24   #9
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

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To my best knowledge and personal experience based on Beneteau family contacts dated back to previous century, yes, it was, and as I may expect it is still like that
I note though that one or two of the contributors on this forum have said they specifically purchased their new Lagoon through a European dealer. I presumed they weren't residents, but maybe my presumption was wrong.
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Old 25-09-2015, 18:04   #10
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Interesting thread. I also have wondered about big cat pricing. I believe I have derived a formula to account for asking price variations.

(((((Original price) - (age depreciation) + (emotional attachment) + (equipment added) + (20% negotiation wiggle room) - (documented boat flaws) )/ (pressure to sell)) x (location)) x (the square of the demand for each brand)= asking price.

Seriously, boat asking prices are a really crazy game. I imagine brokers and survey middle men love this.

I wish there were a site like Zillow for boats. I know the brokers have access to actual sales boat number$. Why can't I access this without a broker

Before I get flamed by all the boat sellers out there THIS FORMULA IS ONLY MY PERSONAL ATTEMPT AT RATIONALIZING ASKING PRICES AND IS NOT INTENDED AS AN ACTUAL FORMULA.
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Old 02-10-2015, 20:24   #11
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Just an update on this…that is to say, I have nothing to say in the way of an update!

Nuclear launch codes would probably be easier to get emailed to me than price lists for new boats.

I've found not a single site that has a "build your boat" type feature - like every auto manufacturer on the planet has - pick your model, your engines, colors, sails, interior, options, etc…and here's your price! Nope…even asking for "what does your new base Lagoon 39 retail for?" just gets me replies asking me to essentially pass the bar & cpa exam in one fell swoop while providing financial and personal information that my accountant and lawyer don't even know

Needless to say, these "dealers" will not be getting my business and, frankly, due to this stonewalling secrecy credo I seem to be running into, I'll most likely go with a used cat at this point.

Not just for those reasons - but if getting a purchase price for a new boat is so complicated, I can only imagine, if I got a base model, what a nightmare it might be to have all the do-dads and gizmos I want installed.

But, if I come across a dealer who shares this information, I'll post it…hmmm…now they may never give it to me if they know I'll share it..LOL

Maybe I should build a site that has that "build your boat" feature…hmmm…
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Old 02-10-2015, 22:12   #12
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

I was recently looking at pricing information on some new Catamarans and Leopard has a build your boat feature. They will send a spec sheet to you via email. I am still a couple of years away from the purchase but wanted the information to know if my budget was meeting my desires.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:38   #13
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Check out this website: Lagoon Pricing » Lagoon Litigation

That gives a 17% discount for lagoon dealers. Maybe this has changed in the meantime but that is the starting point. Any Lagoon dealer at home will send you the price list so you can calculate your own base price.

Somewhere deep in that website there is also a PDF named Lagoon-distributor-handbook or something like that. Read it! It gives a very detailed view of how the factory and the dealers work together, who handles the money, how warrantee claims are handled, etc.

It also includes a list of distributors.

Create a spec of the bost you want and email it to the dealers. Tell them you want to pick up in La Rochelle and that you want to sail the boat somewhere in their area at least initially. That way they have a case to deal with you.
Ask for a good deal on a simple pass-trough transaction where they won't have to do much but just handle paperwork. Start hard negotiations. Tell them other dealers have given you x% (but keep the names of the other dealers confidential, or they will tell Lagoon about them and have them banned).
Last year before i ran into our Mahe I was thinking about buying a new 400. Why we ended up with a completely different boat is another sstory. suffice to say that all used 400 i found were either overspecced for our needs, ridiculously overpriced or run down ex-charter.
I won't disclose my best offer but it was a double digits discount plus a boatshow special although the boatshow was long gone.
They offered another 2% discount for stock boats and boats currently on the production line.

That puts prices of many 2-4 year old boats in another perspective.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:51   #14
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Re: Why such huge pricing differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
what i found out that there is no good deals. Cheap ones are cheap for reason.

Looked at lagoons in adriatic, and came clear to me that the reason for lower price is engines and saildrives are not maintained properly.

And this is serious expense.

Lightening strike makes decent price drop as well.

You get good deals only when people forced to sell ie recession.
So far i found two bargains.
One was a guy who did not need any money but needed a toy gone so his wife would allow him to buy a new one. Two years later our Lagoon 410 sold for more then we paid including all upgrades and maintenance.

Our Mahe was a bargain due to bad location, lost interest, bad marketing skills all combined with a need for money. Plus the seller had not paid much more when he bought because the first owner needed money badly.
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