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Old 11-08-2015, 13:42   #31
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

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Originally Posted by Emerald Sea View Post
Have you upgraded to the recently released Lighthouse 2 versions 14? Our Raymarine system has been performing rather well, better with the v14 upgrade, but I know others similar to you who've had issues. Note the depth sensor and your wind meters are not Raymarine products so there may be a separate issue with these units.
Yep all updated by the techs. I'm pretty sure the anemometer is raymarine, at least it has raymarine stamped on the mount or is it still made by someone else? Not sure about the depth but a German guy I was speaking to who also has the 450 has replaced his depth gauge 3 times on warranty!
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Old 11-08-2015, 14:03   #32
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

James,

I tend to agree with the statement that the older Lagoons sail better, although the latest "SporTop" development finally seems to indicate that Lagoon itself is reverting to making better sailboats.

We are very happy with the sailing abilities of our 470, and it's 11 years old. Although it is somewhat difficult to compare because you never know how good a sailor the other guy is, from our experience the one that creams them all is the 570, then comes ours, the 470, then 440/450 (I honestly don't know which one is better, never saw two sailing together) and last is the 420/421. I was in one once, and the interior space is impressive - much more than in our boat, but it comes at a price...

By the way, we do true 90 degree tacks in light to moderate winds. When sailing to wind, we can set the autopilot to 30-32 degrees apparent, and the boat will run with that the whole night if it has to. Part of this is that we installed a new Furuno autopilot which reacts faster - the old Raymarine was so slow that we would go into the wind even if it was set at 35 degrees...

Oliver
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Old 11-08-2015, 14:20   #33
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

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James,

I tend to agree with the statement that the older Lagoons sail better, although the latest "SporTop" development finally seems to indicate that Lagoon itself is reverting to making better sailboats.

We are very happy with the sailing abilities of our 470, and it's 11 years old. Although it is somewhat difficult to compare because you never know how good a sailor the other guy is, from our experience the one that creams them all is the 570, then comes ours, the 470, then 440/450 (I honestly don't know which one is better, never saw two sailing together) and last is the 420/421. I was in one once, and the interior space is impressive - much more than in our boat, but it comes at a price...

Oliver
420/421 has more space than your 470?? Really ?
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Old 11-08-2015, 15:39   #34
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

Anything down from 90 deg apparent boxy build helps speed as wind has more area to push from behind. Boxing (lots of space) is not taxing speed that much. Slim hulls do nothing for speed where enough wind to reef.

Also in bad weather slim hulls will be liability, which also impacts speed.

I dont think one can say that one boat design sails better in ALL conditions. I bet can find conditions wind/vawes where my L400 will outrun outremer similar length. These conditons will be in strong winds and chop vawes where fat hulls are desired. But, yest outremer will be faster in 95% of conditions.
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Old 11-08-2015, 16:56   #35
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

Uh.....wow......


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Old 11-08-2015, 17:04   #36
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

I think it is true to say that there are too many variables when it comes to boat speed to provide a single answer to the question "Which Lagoon Catamaran sails better".

Our elderly Lagoon 42 TPI has had a significant speed boost with the acquisition of new radial sails and two Maxprop feathering propellers. The speed difference is dramatic and we love our new gear.





As an example we were recently sailing at 8.5 plus knots upwind in a ten to fifteen knot breeze on flat seas. Our top speed that day was 9.8 knots downwind. In the past we would have been lucky to average 6.5 knots - old sails and fixed three bladed propellers can be a real drag.



The new sails are great and look amazing. But the single biggest factor in our new found speed are the Maxprop feathering propellers. The ability to sail with no drag is fantastic, but we have also found that the propellers can be handy (when deliberately unfeathered) while surfing down waves at sea. The ability to add drag and thus lateral stability by opening the Maxprop propellers so that they are rotating and acting like mini sea drogues is an unanticipated benefit. We do not need to be cruising at 16 plus knots out at sea with the family.



The Lagoon 42 TPI is a great design (very seaworthy, with the ability to carry a cruising load and well built), but most boats can be made to sail quickly with enough time and effort...
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Old 11-08-2015, 19:30   #37
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

A possible indication would be the Catamarans Cup ratings:
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Old 12-08-2015, 19:08   #38
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

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and last is the 420/421
FYI, 420 and 421 have different hull shapes and therefore sail differently.
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Old 13-08-2015, 05:30   #39
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Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

Interesting StuM. What is the basis for the rating or where did it come from? I am just trying to get a handicap for a local race so this may help.

Thanks
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Old 13-08-2015, 17:19   #40
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

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Interesting StuM. What is the basis for the rating or where did it come from? I am just trying to get a handicap for a local race so this may help.
Got those from a posting somewhere here some time ago. They are from the Istion Yachting Greece Catamarans Cup.

Not sure what year they were, but I've just found the current one, which look pretty much the same:

FLEET RATINGS
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Old 13-08-2015, 17:40   #41
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

I wouldn't put too much faith in those ratings. The Lagoon 380 is rated faster than the L400, L440 and L450. Not really possible from my experience. Also they have a different rating for L400 and L400S2 which are essentially the same boat. I'd assume the rating is some kind of length/weight/sail area calculation.
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Old 13-08-2015, 18:02   #42
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucey Blue View Post
I think it is true to say that there are too many variables when it comes to boat speed to provide a single answer to the question "Which Lagoon Catamaran sails better".

Our elderly Lagoon 42 TPI has had a significant speed boost with the acquisition of new radial sails and two Maxprop feathering propellers. The speed difference is dramatic and we love our new gear.





As an example we were recently sailing at 8.5 plus knots upwind in a ten to fifteen knot breeze on flat seas. Our top speed that day was 9.8 knots downwind. In the past we would have been lucky to average 6.5 knots - old sails and fixed three bladed propellers can be a real drag.



The new sails are great and look amazing. But the single biggest factor in our new found speed are the Maxprop feathering propellers. The ability to sail with no drag is fantastic, but we have also found that the propellers can be handy (when deliberately unfeathered) while surfing down waves at sea. The ability to add drag and thus lateral stability by opening the Maxprop propellers so that they are rotating and acting like mini sea drogues is an unanticipated benefit. We do not need to be cruising at 16 plus knots out at sea with the family.



The Lagoon 42 TPI is a great design (very seaworthy, with the ability to carry a cruising load and well built), but most boats can be made to sail quickly with enough time and effort...
Great info.
Thank you.
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Old 01-11-2015, 06:52   #43
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

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A possible indication would be the Catamarans Cup ratings:
I have absolutely no idea what these numbers mean. Can someone please explain them to me.
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Old 01-11-2015, 10:27   #44
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

I always wonder at posts like these regarding performance.
In my racing days on high performance Cats I would have gobbled up the specs and tried to figure out what my competition was packing.
Now that I am living and cruising I tend to trim the sail much less, unless of course there is another boat close by LOL.
I would think if your on our site here your not racing, so many things change the performance.
Get a boat that will take a load and still sail
Get more sails, get lots, use them!
Stop constant sail trim, we are cruising.
Learn the subtle changes to your specific boat that help with SOG
The best boat you can have is the one you own, Cat, Mono, Power it's all good.
Get out on the water and sail, the more you sail the faster your boat will go, referring to those subtle changes mentioned earlier.
Make your boat comfortable, gone are the days where sailing was always an outdoor sport.
If your rested, comfortable, well fed and generally happy you will make the good decisions at sea that will keep you safe and get you there.
I have a sailing mate that has a very fast, expensive, sleek, carbon machine.
Now with his loaded up racing boat going off cruising he is low in the water, bridge deck slapping, and sailing right along with the rest of us. When we get to our destination he is still on the racing boat,40% smaller than the cruising Cats.
Remember 95% of the time while out on the oceans of the world you are stopped.



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Old 01-11-2015, 16:36   #45
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Re: Which Lagoon catamaran sails better ?

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I have absolutely no idea what these numbers mean. Can someone please explain them to me.
They are "Time Correction Factors". In a race, you take the time a boat takes to complete the course and multiply by their TCF to get a "Corrected Time". The boat with the best Corrected Time wins.

In non-racing terms, they are comparative figures for expected performance. The higher the number, the faster the boat.

As an example. A Belize 43 has a rating of 0.865 and a Lagoon 440 has a rating of 0.746
The Belize is expected to have an average speed of .865 /.746 = 1.159 times that of the Lagoon (i.e. be about 16% faster).

Or in practical terms:
If a Belize 43 covers a certain distance in 10 hours (600 minutes), the Lagoon 440 would be expected to take about 11.6 hours for the same distance (600 * 0.865 / 0.746 = 696 minutes).

It is of course very dependent on weather conditions, what sort of course the boats are sailing and how the handicaps are established.
Whether handicaps set for a specific regatta in a certain season in a certain location are relevant to your situation is a matter for you to decide.

(The whole subject of handicaps has been the cause of countless acrimonious words over the years in just about every yacht club in the world).
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