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Old 25-03-2016, 09:46   #31
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Re: Washing machine?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I don't know why, that is the wife's area of expertise and I know the answer if I question anything, but I believe we use the humongous US washing machine pretty much daily, I guess mostly towels and sheets etc., but again I do not dare ask.
But my intent once we begin cruising is several fold,
1. we aren't camping, she doesn't like that, her idea of camping was our 36' fifth wheel with triple slides, not a tent. If I make it like camping, she won't enjoy it, ergo I won't enjoy it. I got enough camping in in my Military career, nothing like the Army to ruin things for you.
2. we are not as young as we used to be, I'm not schlepping Jerry cans of water, and I'm not going to ask her to schlep laundry baskets either.
3. I intend to go places where there is little if any modern infrastructure, and I don't want my time there predicated on needing to travel to where there is infrastructure, nor do I want to get into rationing.
4. I'm working now, and have money I can spend now, but when we begin cruising next Summer, it is Retirement for us, meaning of course what we have, is what we have, might ought to watch our expenses, so I can spend $$ now on a washing machine which is no where near $800 much less 800 EUR, but don't want to spend $10 a load, plus as said earlier I want to go where there are few if any washing machines.

Phosphates were banned in laundry detergent in the US in 1993 I think, but are still in use in parts of Europe? Phosphates are the major issue pollution wise and are not removed by waste water treatment I don't think.

Seems little washing machines run from on average from about $100 US to about $300 for the one I think I want, if so assuming a twice a week use break even point isn't so bad. They are little machines, so surely it wouldn't compare to a $10 shoreside load, I assume it would take three loads or so of a portable to equal one shoreside one?

On edit, I don't expect to use it in a Marina, but then hopefully we won't be in Marina's all that often and I hope to treat that time as sort of vacation time, that's when we will go out to eat often and I'll pay someone else to do the laundry etc.
Well said. But I don't actually think you have to justify such choices to any of us.

Concerning marinas -- I use my washing machine in marinas all the time. In fact as I am typing this I'm using my washing machine in a marina. I would not do it if there were a local rules against it, or if someone objected to it, but otherwise I don't see any problem. The discharge does not produce any suds or other unpleasantness.
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Old 25-03-2016, 11:05   #32
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Re: Washing machine?

Not so much justification, but someone here said a couple of years ago that you go down a slippery slope once you decide to have refrigeration, and I think they are right, once you do that, you require an electrical system that will support it, it's not just adding an icebox conversion.
Then you wake up one day having realized you have watermakers, generators and why not a washing machine?
I draw the line at a dishwasher as the boat just isn't big enough, I'd need a bigger boat, but if I had a bigger boat, could afford one and have the infrastructure to support it, why not?
A Lagoon 380 is certainly big enough and most likely has the support systems in place for a washing machine.
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Old 25-03-2016, 13:26   #33
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Re: Washing machine?

Dumping is forbidden not because the water is classified grey but because of toxicity of the detergents. Anybody who understands how MARPOL is structured and who had any exposure to EU environmental laws understands how this works. You are free to dump grey water but not any water that contains detergents, unless you can prove they are non toxic or else treated onboard before discharge.

For toxicity of washing powders and detergents anyone is welcome to do some web research; this may become an eye opener. But only when the mind is already open.

This website gives decent rankings of what is safer and what is relatively less safe:

EWG's Guide to Healthy Cleaning | Cleaner Ratings | Laundry

PLS Note out of 797 products 507 have been found of serious concern. Only 52 have been found of little or no concern.

None of the above precludes having and using a washing machine onboard. All it takes is making sure it is operated with respect to the existing laws and, above all, with respect for marine life and environment.

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Old 25-03-2016, 13:33   #34
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Re: Washing machine?

When we bought this boat it came with a 2011 5kg Candy front load washer dryer 220 V 50 hz with french lables, made in Italy though. We used the dryer once in two years, air drying is way more energy efficient (no generator run time) and less noise on the boat. The Candy blew its main bearing Dec 2015. In this model the bearing could not be replaced, meant renewing the whole drum. We were in the Bahamas so no 220V 50 hz machines available, so we bought the smallest 220V 50Hz machine available from a USA importer (South African model numbers) the replacement was a 7kg Zanussi / Electrolux, washer only, made in the EU and it fitted in the same spot. Been running perfectly for 3 months now, has a large number of cyles from 30min wash (1/2 load) to 2 hours. Spins at 1200, clothes dry quickly after spinning. We have a 450, this machine may be too big for a 380 especially if going into a hull as corridor limits installation size, but other points may be relevant.
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Old 25-03-2016, 13:55   #35
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Re: Washing machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Dumping is forbidden not because the water is classified grey but because of toxicity of the detergents. Anybody who understands how MARPOL is structured and who had any exposure to EU environmental laws understands how this works. You are free to dump grey water but not any water that contains detergents, unless you can prove they are non toxic or else treated onboard before discharge.

For toxicity of washing powders and detergents anyone is welcome to do some web research; this may become an eye opener. But only when the mind is already open.

This website gives decent rankings of what is safer and what is relatively less safe:

EWG's Guide to Healthy Cleaning | Cleaner Ratings | Laundry

PLS Note out of 797 products 507 have been found of serious concern. Only 52 have been found of little or no concern.

None of the above precludes having and using a washing machine onboard. All it takes is making sure it is operated with respect to the existing laws and, above all, with respect for marine life and environment.

b.
I can find not a single reference to anything which forbids discharging detergent into the sea anywhere in the EU.

And why would it be forbidden to discharge laundry detergent if it is ok to discharge washing up liquid, which is also detergent? Or for that matter, to wash with soap?

The only restriction I can find is for inland waterways in the UK, which specifies that phosphate-free detergent should be used.

The RYA, whose legal department publishes detailed information about discharge restrictions in different countries' waters, says nothing about it.

If I'm missing something, I'd be grateful for links to real information. A lot of people will be surprised.


I am aware that phosphates in laundry detergent (or washing up liquid) can be harmful, so I use Ecover, which is free of phosphates.
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Old 25-03-2016, 20:08   #36
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Re: Washing machine?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

I can find not a single reference to anything which forbids discharging detergent into the sea anywhere in the EU.

(...)

If I'm missing something, I'd be grateful for links to real information. A lot of people will be surprised.

I am aware that phosphates in laundry detergent (or washing up liquid) can be harmful, so I use Ecover, which is free of phosphates.
I do not think you are missing anything. But if you want to read the relevant regulations you will start by reading the EC directive 96/61/EC with the many ammendements from 1996 (PLS do not ask me why the EC does not publish consolidated texts of its own regulations). Talking to people at HELCOM may also help in understanding - e.g in how EC regulations extend MARPOL Annex IV onto leisure craft. HELCOM applies to the Baltic only but their maritime environmental lawyers are among the best I ever met.

I know it sounds different if you call from the UK which never accepted most of EU environmental policies in the form as binding on the continent. Your RYA experts may help you understand the differences in how some EU laws are seen from the perspective of UK legal system. Not sure how important this is though given pending Brexit.

It does not surprise me people have so much trouble understanding EU law given how poorly formulated and fragmented this law is. The important point is, however, that claiming the law to be non existent or not binding has little effect when you have you marina manager or harbour master knocking on your door asking you to stop pumpimng that white bubbly water overboard. Should you disobey, you will get a much better legal support from your lawyer than you can ever get from me here.

Not too long ago, a Polish boat got stranded on a Portuguese beach and the owner got badly bruised in a legal match contra local maritime authorities claiming this constituted serious poluting of the beach. The skipper ended up losing the boat and paying a mighty legal fee. Please show me on which EU law this action was based, for some decent lawyers could not find the verbatim regulation either. Still, the skipper paid thru his nose.

And even if there were no legislation. Is it not reasonable to use city laundry facilities where they are available, given the fact that this sewage gets treated before it ends up in the sea or river?

Anyways, EC directive 96/61/EC and onwards. Just make sure you have your coffee express rigged and steaming. ;-)

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Old 25-03-2016, 21:12   #37
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Re: Washing machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I do not think you are missing anything. But if you want to read the relevant regulations you will start by reading the EC directive 96/61/EC with the many ammendements from 1996 (PLS do not ask me why the EC does not publish consolidated texts of its own regulations). Talking to people at HELCOM may also help in understanding - e.g in how EC regulations extend MARPOL Annex IV onto leisure craft. HELCOM applies to the Baltic only but their maritime environmental lawyers are among the best I ever met.

I know it sounds different if you call from the UK which never accepted most of EU environmental policies in the form as binding on the continent. Your RYA experts may help you understand the differences in how some EU laws are seen from the perspective of UK legal system. Not sure how important this is though given pending Brexit.

It does not surprise me people have so much trouble understanding EU law given how poorly formulated and fragmented this law is. The important point is, however, that claiming the law to be non existent or not binding has little effect when you have you marina manager or harbour master knocking on your door asking you to stop pumpimng that white bubbly water overboard. Should you disobey, you will get a much better legal support from your lawyer than you can ever get from me here.

Not too long ago, a Polish boat got stranded on a Portuguese beach and the owner got badly bruised in a legal match contra local maritime authorities claiming this constituted serious poluting of the beach. The skipper ended up losing the boat and paying a mighty legal fee. Please show me on which EU law this action was based, for some decent lawyers could not find the verbatim regulation either. Still, the skipper paid thru his nose.

And even if there were no legislation. Is it not reasonable to use city laundry facilities where they are available, given the fact that this sewage gets treated before it ends up in the sea or river?

Anyways, EC directive 96/61/EC and onwards. Just make sure you have your coffee express rigged and steaming. ;-)

b.
I understand general principles (at least) of EU law pretty well since I studied it with the author of the Treaty of Rome, and used to teach it in one German law faculty.

The RYA legal department is very good, and their summaries for yachtsmen are the most authoritative available.


The Directive you cite has been repealed and is not in force. I'm guessing you know a bit less about EU law than the RYA does. It was superseded by 2008/1/EC. Neither 96/61/EC nor 2008/1/EC is relevant here, anyway, as they are concerned with industrial and agricultural activities.

More relevant are Directive 2000/60/EC, Decision No 2455/2001/EC, and Directive 2008/32/EC, which are concerned with water quality, including coastal areas of the sea. But like most EU legislation, these are decisions about setting water quality goals, controlling certain pollutants as a priority, making other decisions in the future, or directives to states to implement legislation or carry out different kinds of reporting, and do not themselves establish any specific rules about specific measures.

Also relevant is the Bathing Water Directive, 2007/7/EC, which requires EU member states to monitor and classify the quality of water in areas where people bathe, and report to the EU and notify the public. But again, no specific measures are required and pleasure vessels are not mentioned. It is up to the member states to work out the details in their own legislation. The earlier version of this Directive, 76/160/EEC, actually required member states to prohibit bathing in areas where water quality is below a certain standard; but the new version is softer, requiring only warning signs provided certain other measures are being taken.

I have not found any EU regulation which would prohibit discharge of any kind of grey water from pleasure vessels. Such specific measures are left to the legislation of the member states.

I have also not found any EU member laws which would prohibit the discharge of gray water of any kind.

I have seen nothing to make me doubt the quality of the RYA legal office work.


If a marina manager forbids you to do it, that's within his rights -- every marina has the right to make up its own rules for this. But don't confuse that with EU law!!
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Old 26-03-2016, 08:41   #38
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Re: Washing machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

(...)

I have not found any EU regulation which would prohibit discharge of any kind of grey water from pleasure vessels. Such specific measures are left to the legislation of the member states.

I have also not found any EU member laws which would prohibit the discharge of gray water of any kind.

(...)
Having spent a number of hours yesterday browsing the web for relevant regulations and having read your (excellent) write up I have no other choice but to admit that my well intended claim about such discharge being prohibited in the EU was not well informed. In plain words, given the evidence, I think you are right and my assumption was wrong.

Off course it is always an unpleasant moment when we have to admit our believes are only just that. This troubles me somewhat but not to the point of denial. What I think troubles me more is the fact that a huge bureaucratic machine like the EU failed to address issues I personally find troubling to a large extent.

I am probably, like most anybody, too self concerned; white bubbly water is likely good for life aquatic, as are thousands of tons of smelly sewage churned out of Las Palmas main (treated) sewage dump that every ARC sails thru on their way to the start line. I bet if you ask anybody on the ARC, no-one has even noticed.

Let alone the dozen or so of the clam farms located some six miles down current from the pipe. I bet these clams are very fat and nutritious.

Thank you again for your great post and for giving us (=me) the chance to have my eyes opened to facts of life. My mind is open even though my heart is bleeding.

Goodbye Jacques, ;-(

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Old 26-03-2016, 09:27   #39
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Re: Washing machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Having spent a number of hours yesterday browsing the web for relevant regulations and having read your (excellent) write up I have no other choice but to admit that my well intended claim about such discharge being prohibited in the EU was not well informed. In plain words, given the evidence, I think you are right and my assumption was wrong.

Off course it is always an unpleasant moment when we have to admit our believes are only just that. This troubles me somewhat but not to the point of denial. What I think troubles me more is the fact that a huge bureaucratic machine like the EU failed to address issues I personally find troubling to a large extent.

I am probably, like most anybody, too self concerned; white bubbly water is likely good for life aquatic, as are thousands of tons of smelly sewage churned out of Las Palmas main (treated) sewage dump that every ARC sails thru on their way to the start line. I bet if you ask anybody on the ARC, no-one has even noticed.

Let alone the dozen or so of the clam farms located some six miles down current from the pipe. I bet these clams are very fat and nutritious.

Thank you again for your great post and for giving us (=me) the chance to have my eyes opened to facts of life. My mind is open even though my heart is bleeding.

Goodbye Jacques, ;-(

b.
Well, kudos for your intellectual honesty


Look, don't think I don't care about the environmental consequences of what I do on board. I have for many years used ECOVER laundry detergent in my washing machine, both on- and off board. This is top rated in the source you cited, and in fact is specifically tested for harmfulness to sea life:


"We want to make sure that Ecover products have the lowest possible impact on the environment as possible, especially on our water systems. So, we measure how toxic our products are to aquatic life and aim to reduce this wherever we can. When you pull the plug on your washing up water, it eventually ends up in our water systems. But there are other living things in this water too Ė bacteria, algae, water fleas and fish. All these organisms play a key role in the functioning of the ecosystem in the Water. The trouble is that many ingredients found in cleaning products are really toxic for aquatic life, even in small doses. Ecover choose ingredients which we know have less impact, but we still feel itís crucial to perform tests to make sure we know how toxic the product will be when it emerges into surface water. Not testing equals not knowing, which is not only unacceptable to us but as an ethical brand we want to make sure that we say what we do. It also means we can make improvements along the way!"

FAQs - Ecover


So there is no "ugly white discharge" or anything when I use my washing machine.


One important thing to keep in mind --

Sewage treatment reduces bacteria and gets rid of much of suspended solids in black and gray water produced on land. But it does little to nothing to reduce chemicals in the gray water you produce on land.

Therefore, I am not sure that there is anything much to be gained, from the point of view of impact on water quality, by washing clothes on land.

Both on land and on board, you should be careful about the chemicals you put down the drain. Bleach for example is really horrible and should be used only when really necessary. I try to never put it down the drain on board (although I do spray it on things sometimes in my never ending war on mildew).

Ecover laundry detergent and washing up liquid is very kind to the water system, and surprisingly, is not all that expensive, and works great! I use it on land as well as on board.
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Old 26-03-2016, 09:43   #40
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Re: Washing machine?

Speaking of Ecover laundry detergent, it can be bought in Tescos in the UK, or online here:

Effective green house cleaning products at the Official Ecover Online Shop

Buying it directly is even cheaper and saves humping it to the boat from some supermarket. I have just ordered a whole summers worth of laundry detergent, washing up liquid, stain removers, etc., for only 40 pounds. Such quality for so little money is a mystery to me. Highly recommended.
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Old 26-03-2016, 14:46   #41
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Re: Washing machine?

I will agree using Ecover and similar products is a great improvement. Not to forget Ecover sponsored Mike Golding in Vendee.

I hope it will not collide with CF rules if I post an image of that fabulous (and as we have learned environment friendly) boat here.

Cheers,
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Old 26-03-2016, 15:59   #42
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Re: Washing machine?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I will agree using Ecover and similar products is a great improvement. Not to forget Ecover sponsored Mike Golding in Vendee.

I hope it will not collide with CF rules if I post an image of that fabulous (and as we have learned environment friendly) boat here.

Cheers,
b.
We are allowed to talk about companies we like.

Ecover is one of my favorites, worth telling other cruisers about.

Their detergents and other cleaning agents work are extremely effective, smell good, don't hurt aquatic life, and, amazingly, are actually cheaper than normal commercial products. I don't really know how they do it. I would buy them for the smell alone.
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Old 26-03-2016, 16:43   #43
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Re: Washing machine?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
In plain words, given the evidence, I think you are right and my assumption was wrong.

Off course it is always an unpleasant moment when we have to admit our believes are only just that.

Thank you again for your great post and for giving us (=me) the chance to have my eyes opened to facts of life. My mind is open even though my heart is bleeding.

Goodbye Jacques, ;-(

b.
A noble gesture Jacques. Good on you!

I hope it is contagious, as on this forum the correction of mistaken assertions is very rare indeed. More power to you.
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Old 27-03-2016, 06:42   #44
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Re: Washing machine?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
I have installed the Daewoo mini and works fine at 3kg loads for2 people, I think there is a difference to cruising vs living and working full time onboard , when cruising on the boat we don't wear that much and main items are shorts and bedding .,,,
We bought a Daewoo mini on ebay and first impression was that the drum is ridiculously small, but it has turned out to be really successful. Maximum load (pushing it a bit) is a queensize bedsheet. If you wash regularly, it can easily cope with the daily load of a cruising couple.
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Old 27-03-2016, 07:30   #45
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Re: Washing machine?

Anyone try a spin dryer on their boat? Seems like you could hand wash clothes in a bucket and then use this to spin clothes. For folks with limited space? IMHO the worst thing about hand washing is wringing out clothes...
http://www.simplygoodstuff.com/spin-...ior.html#specs

Granted not as easy as a washer if you have space...


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