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Old 06-03-2016, 03:52   #31
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
"I don't want to have to leave the cockpit until the boat is in the harbor tied up."

The best way to avoid this is fit a Mainsail down haul line to head of sail and run back to cockpit as suggested. This enables you to pull the last of the sail down and hold it down from the cockpit. Also can be used to pull sail down while going down wind to put a reef in, without going head to wind.

Standard fitment on the L450.
Can you give me the details of how this is setup. What size line, where is it attached to, where is it led , etc. Do you attach to sail, cars, just let it hang freely, go to turning block on deck....Pics would be great if you have them.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:58   #32
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

I'd suggest 3 things.
One, lube the cars with silicon spray. Use the little pipe to direct the spray onto the bearings of the cars. while doing it check to see all the bearings are in place and cars not damaged. They damage easily on the 380.
Two, lay the flaked halyard on the side deck rather than the cabin so it has space to run free before the clutch to allow continuous paying out without jams.
Three, put one turn on the electric winch, hold the halyard with your left hand while you release the clutch, then pay out the halyard to control the drop. Partway down remove the halyard from the winch to reduce friction. Never just open the clutch and let it fall, you WILL damage the cars and may have already done so if your method (see point one about checking cars/bearings)
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:51   #33
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

Dish soap is a great sail track lubricant and helps clean them. All ball bearing blocks would also help. If you want even better go to a harken bear track system for your main track you could get rid of 2:1 halyard but track will need frequent lubing.


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Old 06-03-2016, 05:01   #34
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

PS to Stumble. Baby stay is a better way of removing mast pumping. Hayward tension or Cunningham should me for sail shape.


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Old 06-03-2016, 05:03   #35
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

PS to Stumble. Baby stay is a better way of removing mast pumping. Hayward tension or Cunningham should me for sail shape.


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Old 06-03-2016, 07:20   #36
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

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Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
Thanks mate. This is the exact info I need. From a cat owner who has had this issue, why these forums are great. Any brand you recommend.

For the others who want to question my experience, been sailing for 50 years on mono hulls from racing lasers to racing cruising 50'. For those chiming in who have not tried to do what I am saying on a multihull, don't be so quick to say so easy. To get onto the cabin top itself is a much different effort than a mono, and that is just the beginning. Why would I want to leave the cockpit to do sail handling chores if I didn't have to. It is why all the lines are led there.
I think that Monte & some of the others have the right idea when it comes to cleaning the cars, & various hardware involved in the system. And that basic soap & water, along with fresh water flushes is what works best.

Regarding lubricants. Anything which leaves a (sticky) residue behind, is going to attract more dirt. Thus necessitating more cleaning. And such is the commentary by Harken http://www.harken.com/uploadedFiles/...ice_online.pdf on such, amongst other hardware manufacturers. In addition to which, it just plain old matching up with common sense as well.

For track cleaning, one needn't go aloft every time. It's a fairly simple matter to fabricate (or sometimes buy) an assembly which fits onto the track, & has facilities to insert rags or swabbing pads, into it. And then tow it up & down the track in order to clean things.

Monte's other tip, about laying out the halyard, prior to dropping the main is a good one. And one which I considered adding earlier. But by that point I'd already exceeded my limits for typing.

And as to me & multihulls, I've been on closer to 100, than to 0. Everything from beach cats, up to ENZA. With lots of cruisers tossed in too. And I'm failing to see the difficulty with getting onto the cabin top. But perhaps that's just me.

That said, if the flat recess built into the cabin top on this boat wasn't big enough to enable easy sail handling, then I'd not hesitate to build one. Ditto on proper stairs/ladder, to make it easier to get up there. Albeit to me, the cabin top surely doesn't look to be that high, & the boom's all of 4' off of the deck to my eye Presentation of the catamaran lagoon 380

Also, I wouldn't have made the comments about getting up there in order to get the job done, if I genuinely wasn't having trouble seeing where the problem lwith doing such, is.


If you want to build a downhaul, much of the how, behind making an effective, clutter free one, depends upon your mainsail's hardware, & how it's attached to the sail. Though some of the "how" behind rigging one has been mentioned more than a couple of times in this thread alone.

In their most basic form. You want to run a line from somewhere near the top batten. Down though some form of hardware which connects the sail to it's track. As basically, you don't want it getting pushed around by the wind, & into something. Subsequently jamming up hardware, or even the ablity to drop the main.

For example, if some of the cars are webbed onto the sail, then you could run the downhaul though these attachments.
And the line itself, could be a length of 4-5mm Spectra - light, strong, slippery, & low chafe (inducing).

As an example, on some smaller, lower cost boats, which have hank on jibs. The downhaul runs up the sail, along side the headstay, inside of the piston hanks. And on some boats, at it's bottom end, it runs through a deck block, & then runs back to the cockpit.
Thus, if the jib's halyard is led aft, then no one need go forward in order to neatly, & efficiently, lower the jib.
And on some boats, folks will even knock grommets into the leading edge of the sail, every few feet, to lace a downhaul through them. And thus acilitate easier handling of the sail.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:38   #37
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pirate Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

What I find disconcerting are the Lagoons with the flybridge..
The 380 is not to bad for 'messing' with the main.. however the flybridge versions are dangerous to my mind..
Having had one of those stupid reef blocks tear of the leech in a blow and needing to go up there on a pitching boat in 4+ metre seas to stow/arrange before it trashed itself to rags.. at the front of the boom were 2 steps on the mast to reach the boom high enough to work on the luff.. then go onto the sundeck aft of the seats to deal with the leech with the boom whipping back and forth with enough force to break bones and throw one off is no fun.. I am 6'+ and its an uncomfortable stretch..
From a working seamans viewpoint its a potentially lethal setup..
Great for tourists and fairweather sailors but for 'Safety at Sea' I give it a CE Rating of ZERO..
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Old 06-03-2016, 13:37   #38
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
Can you give me the details of how this is setup. What size line, where is it attached to, where is it led , etc. Do you attach to sail, cars, just let it hang freely, go to turning block on deck....Pics would be great if you have them.
6mm Spectra line attached to Top car via a shackle, led down through the center of each car to a turning block at base of mast. Then via deck organizer to cockpit and a clutch. Just as described by UNCIVILIZED.

Sorry no pics sails and lines currently off boat due to cyclone season. Will be re rigging in the next week or to.
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Old 06-03-2016, 14:07   #39
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

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Originally Posted by Sailor Doug View Post
PS to Stumble. Baby stay is a better way of removing mast pumping. Hayward tension or Cunningham should me for sail shape.


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A baby sta stops a problem you have, 2:1 halyards prevent the problem in the first place. It's almost always better to eliminate the problem than to introduce a way to solve the problem.
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Old 06-03-2016, 17:32   #40
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
And as to me & multihulls, I've been on closer to 100, than to 0. Everything from beach cats, up to ENZA. With lots of cruisers tossed in too. And I'm failing to see the difficulty with getting onto the cabin top. But perhaps that's just me.

Albeit to me, the cabin top surely doesn't look to be that high, & the boom's all of 4' off of the deck to my eye

Also, I wouldn't have made the comments about getting up there in order to get the job done, if I genuinely wasn't having trouble seeing where the problem lwith doing such, is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post



Okay, time to switch geas: .
To the OP, I'm not purposefully trying to put you on the spot, however, most of the below queries & comments, to me, are just common sense.

- Rigging a downhaul. I mean that's something I knew about when I was like 10, although we'd never used nor needed one.

Plus from where, comes this fear of leaving the cockpit when not at the dock?
Because, as a sailor, you need to be comfortable doing so in any kind of weather. Ditto on manually hauling down your sails by hand (at any time, & in any weather conditions).

I mean, honestly, 4' seas on a 40' cat are a "big deal". I ask, because, as a non young man, with several herniated discs, I think nothing of free climbing 10' up a mast to shackle on the main halyard.... on a monohull, rolling around heavily in 10' seas.
So, yeah, I'm befuddled by that one.
Sir: I will immediately ship out on a clipper ship, tall ship, barque, or schooner, etc., make sure that I climb the rat lines to the crows nest, get pictures of me rolling around in 20' seas, and certainly have pictures of me reefing some of the top sails. Remember, one hand for you, one hand for the boat, and keep your feet on the lines so you don't slip. I will try to get on a cruise around the horn, so hopefully I can get you to stamp my 'man card' so I will be fit to sail my boat. Sir!

I mean you were rigging downhauls when you were 10, clearly you must be at least a captain of one of the world's foremost navies, so I am honored to have your criticism. I bow to your comments about your terrific sailing skills while commenting about something you know nothing about; me.

Sheesh. Why would one ever want to leave the safety of the cockpit to raise and drop your sails if you don't have to. I can't believe the boat was designed to be able to raise the sail and drop 40 of the 50' feet of the main in under a minute from the cockpit , then have to get up on the cabin top and spend the next 10 minutes trying to get the last 10' down. If you want or like to climb the mast 10' to hook up the halyard shackle, good for you. Me personally, I just want to press a button and have the sail come up and down. I have nothing to prove, I just want to enjoy the wind pushing my boat with the least effort I need to put in. I have nothing I need to prove. I have a lagoon, posted a question in the lagoon forums, hoping to get advice from people who have more lagoon experience, But whatever floats your boat...
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Old 06-03-2016, 17:58   #41
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

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Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
Me personally, I just want to press a button and have the sail come up and down. I have nothing to prove, I just want to enjoy the wind pushing my boat with the least effort I need to put in. I have nothing I need to prove. I have a lagoon, posted a question in the lagoon forums, hoping to get advice from people who have more lagoon experience, But whatever floats your boat...
A well-run downhaul is your solution. If you REALLY want to "push a button" and have it all happen for you, you NEED a downhaul on an electric winch rather than just relying on gravity to do anything for you.

Properly done, a downhaul is going to be able to take the same load as the halyard itself. With the use of Dyneema you'll be able to use a small diameter line though. Sorry, no Lagoon so certainly can't tell you where to run the line to make it all happen just so. Actually originally responded to your post on my iPhone and didn't realize which forum this was coming from. Certainly hope that my response as well as responses of other monohull owners prove helpful to other sailors with similar problems. A sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat when it comes to your particular issue of friction and getting the sail down that last bit.

You ask these question: Can you give me the details of how this is setup. What size line, where is it attached to, where is it led , etc. Do you attach to sail, cars, just let it hang freely, go to turning block on deck....Pics would be great if you have them. I already mentioned that we attach to a car in the track that is above all other cars (and above head of sail. We use the tail of the halyard (yes, makes it very long) but you would likely use a dyneema line and run down the side of the mast (free is ok) to a turning block and then back to your cockpit. Use as few turning blocks as possible as they just add friction.

Fair winds,
Brenda
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Old 07-03-2016, 01:53   #42
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

Amigo, your questions have been answered, in several ways, with a multiplicity of solution options... several times over; by many, many different people.
Not only to no avail, but to be met by: hostility, insecurities, ego, insulting accusations, & incorrect + demeaning assumptions/attacks.

When you can cut those loose, especially your ego, then perhaps you can begin to learn. As for the truest & best learning to start, such baggage must be checked at the door.

Or to put it another way, the teacher(s) have already appeared, but the student is not ready.
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Old 07-03-2016, 03:35   #43
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

The friction in the system resists the gravity forces of the increasingly small sail as the halyard is released. At first the entire weight of the sail is being resisted by the friction of 15 or so sail slugs. The sail is a triangle so the proportional amount of friction per slide related to the weight of the sail increases as the sail flakes.

Solutions are to reduce the friction ESPECIALLY for the slugs on the top section and the lowest section of the mast track. If there were no friction... the sail would drop by its own weight. You can't eliminate the friction so you will to add downward force and as others suggested a down haul.... or go to the mast and pull down on the luff... forward end of the sail. You can also pull down on the leech.

Less friction makes it also easier to raise the sail. So it's important to reduce friction between the slugs and the track. head to wind helps by jostling the sail slugs.. but if they twist they also could wedge themselves a bit and add friction!

Lubricated the track and you'll have a better performance getting the sail up and down. It's not uncommon for the last 10 feet or so to not just drop by it's own weight.
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:59   #44
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

How about in-boom roller furling? I know there are several 380's with the Leisure Furl set-up, cruising distances. They're happy with furling and reefing. Check it out.
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Old 07-03-2016, 13:08   #45
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Re: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

Having had in mast furling on my last 2 boats and really liking that, I will look into the in boom at some later point. I had not seen any lagoons with in boom (thinking the main on the cat setup doesn't lead it self to in mast very well). Thanks!
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