380 S2: Trouble dropping regular mainsail

[Training Wheels]

Exactly, you go there to zip up the lazy bag.


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[boatman61]

Its called 'Getting some Exercise'..

[AZ-Oldguy]

Steven, you pull twice as much sheet into the cockpit, which gives you mechanical advantage, but the only place where there is less load on the sheet is between the two blocks of your tackle. There each of those two parts of the same sheet are doing half the work. The mast, on the other hand is carrying twice the load as the load on your luff, or the load on your sheets which is returning to the cockpit. So, for example, with a tension of 300 pounds at your winch, your mast is carrying 600 pounds.

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[Training Wheels]

Huh?


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[AZ-Oldguy]

Sorry, its physics.

[Training Wheels]

I think you might want to crack open those physics books and read them again.

[jbinbi]

So to get this back on topic, my thought was that getting rid of the 2:1 purchase on the top of sail might let it drop more freely. Clearly there is some friction. I have an electric winch to get the sail up, but didn't think on a 38 non square sail I would need that much purchase to need the extra block on the head of the sail. Since I am new to cats, I could be wrong.

In the spring, I will try lube as well.

For those without cats chiming in, getting on top of the cabin top, and pulling down this sail is no easy feat. Plus pulling down the sail required quite a bit of effort. This was a 10 min job, with me hanging on it 4' seas. I don't want to have to leave the cockpit until the boat is in the harbor tied up.

[PaulinOz]

"I don't want to have to leave the cockpit until the boat is in the harbor tied up."

The best way to avoid this is fit a Mainsail down haul line to head of sail and run back to cockpit as suggested. This enables you to pull the last of the sail down and hold it down from the cockpit. Also can be used to pull sail down while going down wind to put a reef in, without going head to wind.

Standard fitment on the L450.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

So to get this back on topic, my thought was that getting rid of the 2:1 purchase on the top of sail might let it drop more freely. Clearly there is some friction. I have an electric winch to get the sail up, but didn't think on a 38 non square sail I would need that much purchase to need the extra block on the head of the sail. Since I am new to cats, I could be wrong.

In the spring, I will try lube as well.

For those without cats chiming in, getting on top of the cabin top, and pulling down this sail is no easy feat. Plus pulling down the sail required quite a bit of effort. This was a 10 min job, with me hanging on it 4' seas. I don't want to have to leave the cockpit until the boat is in the harbor tied up.

Good god don't get rid of the 2:1, I am on a mission to encourage people to add them.

First it decreases mast compression from 2x halyard tension to 1.5x halyard tension. The 25% reduction may not sound like much, but it really helps to reduce mast pumping substantially.

Second it reduced halyard loads by half. Of course if you do have a 2:1 and get rid of it your halyard may not be strong enough anymore, and certainly will add more stretch, so a new halyard may be in order. You also need to look at all the deck hardware, some or all of it may need to be resized.

Third... Depends on your cunningham. If you have a good one then ignore this. If not, without the 2:1 you may not be able to get enough luff tension, particularly with a square top main.

Fourth, the lower halyard load also reduces abrasion and wear on the line.


Finally there is no good reason to eliminate a 2:1, except the halyard tail is obviously much longer. Unless you are adding halyard locks (a completely different conversation) a 2:1 is a great thing to have.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Steven UK

Are you sure... If the halyard is led through an extra block on the sail making the halyard easier to pull surely the tension on the halyard would be less and thus the compression. If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time...

The compression when the sail is up and luff tensioned is equal to the tension on the luff plus the tension on the halyard. So except for a short section at the top of the mast, the tension on the luff being the same, the tension in the halyard is halved with the block and double line and consequently the mast compression only 3/4 of the single line halyard.

When the sail is being lowered the weight of the has to pull the halyard vertically up the mast as well as overcome all the friction in the blocks and deck fittings if your halyards are rigged back to the cockpit. Since the double line when a block is used only provides half the line pull on the halyard the weight of the sail will not will not be as effective in overcoming the weight of the vertical section of halyard and the system friction.

What you would do depends on your priorities. If you are old and stiff like me and abhor going out onto a pitching deck to haul a sail down you would go for a single line halyard and perhaps the downhaul(I've been tempted a number of times but also abhor the added complexity of the downhaul) If you are a fanatical weight aloft man and want to minimize the mast compression you might want to consider keeping the block and light halyard.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

So to get this back on topic, my thought was that getting rid of the 2:1 purchase on the top of sail might let it drop more freely. Clearly there is some friction. I have an electric winch to get the sail up, but didn't think on a 38 non square sail I would need that much purchase to need the extra block on the head of the sail. Since I am new to cats, I could be wrong.

In the spring, I will try lube as well.

For those without cats chiming in, getting on top of the cabin top, and pulling down this sail is no easy feat. Plus pulling down the sail required quite a bit of effort. This was a 10 min job, with me hanging on it 4' seas. I don't want to have to leave the cockpit until the boat is in the harbor tied up.

Firstly, some other solution options:
One to look into, is reducing the friction of your masthead halyard sheave. As if it's just a plain old sheave on a pin, without any bearings (in the sheave), then that alone could be a good sized piece of the puzzle right there.
If it is (such a sheave), then look at replacing it with one of these Harken should help a good bit.

And even if your sheaves (plural, as in on all of your halyards) do have bearings. Take them out of the spar anyway, & give them some quality maintenance time.
As typically when one does such to a block or sheave, you wind up removing a lot of dirt & other material which has been gumming things up, & that has a Big impact on the free rolling abilities of said pieces of hardware.
And only use dry lube, if any (as dictated by materials) for these applications.

Also, seriously consider giving your halyard a slipperier jacket for it's top 20' or so. Such as a Spectra (Dyneema) anti-chafe sleeve. If your current jacket is polyester that is.
Just ensure that the transition between the jackets is smooth, so that you don't introduce extra friction into things at that juncture. That, & of course, make sure that things are properly tapered into the halyard's core, & lock stitched, etc.

I'd suggest removing the cover on that section of the halyard in order to reduce friction. Assuming that it's Dyneema cored. But unless you go up your mast a lot, to inspect things for chafe, then that idea gets the thumbs down.

Also, you could compare your halyard loadings against it's rated strength. And if in stepping down a size, in terms of diameter, you'll still have a strong enough halyard. Then that'll reduce ffriction as well.


Okay, time to switch geas: .
To the OP, I'm not purposefully trying to put you on the spot, however, most of the below queries & comments, to me, are just common sense.

How does one have a $1/4 million+ boat, & not know about;
- Cleaning one's mainsail track & sliders. Something which applies to any boat.
- Rigging a downhaul. I mean that's something I knew about when I was like 10, although we'd never used nor needed one.
- Cleaning, & thus reducing friction, in the blocks & hardware through which, a halyard's routed.
Such is just standard maintenance. Ditto on the sliders & track thing.

Plus from where, comes this fear of leaving the cockpit when not at the dock?
Because, as a sailor, you need to be comfortable doing so in any kind of weather. Ditto on manually hauling down your sails by hand (at any time, & in any weather conditions). Even if it means adding a few steps to the mast, or whatever.
Flat out, those are Seamanship things. AKA, they speak directly to safety.

I mean, honestly, 4' seas on a 40' cat are a "big deal". I ask, because, as a non young man, with several herniated discs, I think nothing of free climbing 10' up a mast to shackle on the main halyard.... on a monohull, rolling around heavily in 10' seas.
So, yeah, I'm befuddled by that one.

And if I'm somehow wrong about the above, I'm open to hearing the "why", along with the undistilled logic behind same.

I'm speaking out about these things as I see it all to often on here. And to me, it speaks of not having paid one's dues, in learning more & more about sailing; over time, while working one's way up through bigger, & bigger boats.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Either way, but don't you have to go forward to do that anyway? My point is "pull the last 6 ft of the sail down"!

Oh yes we have to go forward--getting the main down quickly is a piece of cake and relatively close to the cockpit but without the downhaul I would be climbing up on top the boom to reach up and get the last bit of sail down. The pile of sail is about 4ft tall on top the boom that is about 5ft off the deck there so one is way up in the air to get at that last bit of sail unless using a downhaul. For us the downhaul is a must.

Our gaff foresail and the hanked on jib (11 bowsprit) are both more challenging to get stowed than just getting the main down. We each have our own issues I suppose.

The downhaul is a no brain add for us though. My question was why disconnect the halyard.


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[Snowpetrel]

A boat hook at the mast has been my favorite solution on bigger boats. Just go fwd and use it to hook onto the highest car you can reach and pull it down. Then you should be able to reach the headboard and pull that down as well.

Then you hook the halyard and pull it down so you can secure that. Pretty easy and saves the jamb up potential of a downhaul.

Much better than having to climb up over the boom bag to reach it by hand.

The boat hook has other uses as well, like pulling the zip closed, and picking up moorings, hats and stuff.

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[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by TheOffice

Buy a can of McLube and spray the slugs and as much of the track as you can reach. if you send someone up the mast, have them spray the whole track. Repeat every 4-6 months.

i had same issue. No need to spray track and climb. You need to spray car balls. You check car and will see there is hole for exactly that reason.10 min job. Still falls all the way after 15 mths

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i had same issue. No need to spray track and climb. You need to spray car balls. You check car and will see there is hole for exactly that reason.10 min job. Still falls all the way after 15 mths

Thanks mate. This is the exact info I need. From a cat owner who has had this issue, why these forums are great. Any brand you recommend.

For the others who want to question my experience, been sailing for 50 years on mono hulls from racing lasers to racing cruising 50'. For those chiming in who have not tried to do what I am saying on a multihull, don't be so quick to say so easy. To get onto the cabin top itself is a much different effort than a mono, and that is just the beginning. Why would I want to leave the cockpit to do sail handling chores if I didn't have to. It is why all the lines are led there.