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Old 28-04-2013, 14:51   #91
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

To the OP.

My Gemini had the Forespar seacocks that I saw on one of Mainsails videos. Not the one he tested but the kind that he showed after the test. Sort of "cube" looking.

The first one I had to replace was the head intake. The handle just fell off in my hand. And it was leaking. I found I could hold the handle to the seacock and get the teeth to engage enough to turn the ball to the off position. That generated a sigh of relief. They then sell you one at a discount if you call them. They are easy to replace because the handle has the little plug you use to plug the outside part on the hull. Then you unscrew four screws, remove the working body, put the new one in place and replace the four screws. Simple. They won't sell just the working body part as they come "assembled and tested" with a tape tamper-seal. So you have to guess at the torque of the screws.

The second one I replaced mysteriously started to leak just a little bit where the handle inserts. It was a bigger one that had the lever to switch from sea water to a hose adapter it has. Nice for fresh water flush. I replaced the body on that one too. 35 min from first swim to last but that included a rinse with fresh and a quick dry while cussing about how cold the water was. The removed body was taken apart with nothing noticeably wrong. No gouges, cracks, scrapes etc. I re-assembled it and called it a spare.

Then I needed it. I figured it out finally. If the engine is running and you switch the lever from sea water to the fresh side there is a small period of time that the full suction of the motor is applied to the exit side of the seacock. Somehow this must move one of the o'rings and allow a slow leak.

I replaced it with my "spare" and all was fine again. NOTE: I had to do this twice before I figured out what was the cause of the leak. It did not happen on just one flush/changeover. It could be on the fifth............or the tenth.

See, the last time was when I was showing the boat for sale. It had sat for two weeks since the last prospective buyer. This guy raised the floor board and the bilge had water in it - **** - a Gemini (in perfect shape) has bone dry bilges. I explained I knew the cause. That worked. Then he raised the floor board in the other hull and found more water. I was beside myself with frustration. It turned out to be fresh from a loose hose clamp on the water heater. Both fixed in an hour or so. But the guy ( who knew he wanted a Gem) was long gone.

This is of course all anecdotal. And quite long............sorry. But it is CF

I would go with Bronze. The kind where it is all bronze and not the kind that have the nice ball that is turned by crap steel handle and crap steel nut that holds the handle and turns the ball........and rusts away to nothing.
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Old 28-04-2013, 14:53   #92
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Captain Bill - Would you mind answering a few questions for me?

1. Do you know approximately what year that valve was purchased?

2. I'm assuming that you shut the valve before you took the handle off? So the ball should have closed the system at the input side of the housing, correct? Was the ball valve not fully closed when you took the handle off?

3. The UL 1121 standard states that if the handle is removed (intentionally or unintentionally) you should be able to operate the valve with ordinary tools like a crescent wrench. Could you not close the valve to stop the leak?

Thanks
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Old 28-04-2013, 15:27   #93
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Therapy - I'm curious.

When you say the handle fell off, do you mean it just dropped off the valve housing or did you went to turn it and the handle came off?

You mentioned that you had to hold the handle in place to close the valve. Was there any reason you couldn't simply screw the handle back in place?

I assume that the four "screws" you're referring to are the four long bolts that bolt into the round bottom flange. It screws into the thru-hull. Is that correct?

When you say Forespar gave you a "working body" what were you referring?

The basic outer 93 shell consists of the lower flange, the barrel that contains the handle port, the ball valve and stem and the races the ball sits in. Lastly you have the cap piece that the 4 long SS bolts slide through and bolt into the bottom flange.

It sounds like they gave you everything but the lower flange? Was there a new handle attached with the unit you received?

This is basically the same issue that the Catalina owners had. I think I know what the problem is and why it occurs so your answers will be most helpful.

Thanks
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Old 28-04-2013, 15:36   #94
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
Captain Bill - Would you mind answering a few questions for me?

1. Do you know approximately what year that valve was purchased?

2. I'm assuming that you shut the valve before you took the handle off? So the ball should have closed the system at the input side of the housing, correct? Was the ball valve not fully closed when you took the handle off?

3. The UL 1121 standard states that if the handle is removed (intentionally or unintentionally) you should be able to operate the valve with ordinary tools like a crescent wrench. Could you not close the valve to stop the leak?

Thanks
1.The sea cocks are oiginal to the boat which was launched in February of 2002 so I imagine they were sourced in the later half of 2001.

2. The valve was fully closed when I took the handle off and the leak occurred. I put the handle back on and cycled the valve a couple of times. I took the handle off again and it leaked. I then embedded a cable tie retainer in a large glob of epoxy and drilled a hole in the handle. I use a cable tie to secure the valve and keep the water cops happy.

3. See answer 2.
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Old 28-04-2013, 16:41   #95
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
Therapy - I'm curious.

When you say the handle fell off, do you mean it just dropped off the valve housing or did you went to turn it and the handle came off?

I was going to open it. I turned it and it came off in my hand. The screw was still in the handle and the deeper part had broken off. Holding it against the body I could get the "teeth" to grip to close it.

You mentioned that you had to hold the handle in place to close the valve. Was there any reason you couldn't simply screw the handle back in place?

The screw was till on the handle.

I assume that the four "screws" you're referring to are the four long bolts that bolt into the round bottom flange. It screws into the thru-hull. Is that correct? They screw to the base, yes.



When you say Forespar gave you a "working body" what were you referring?

The basic outer 93 shell consists of the lower flange, the barrel that contains the handle port, the ball valve and stem and the races the ball sits in. Lastly you have the cap piece that the 4 long SS bolts slide through and bolt into the bottom flange.

It sounds like they gave you everything but the lower flange? Was there a new handle attached with the unit you received?

They sold me a complete unit. It had the white plastic mushroom and everything - handle in place. Mine was installed with 5200. I left those parts in place and just replaced the "body".

This is basically the same issue that the Catalina owners had. I think I know what the problem is and why it occurs so your answers will be most helpful.

Thanks
Blue answers are from the head seacock that the handle fell (broke) off of.

I don't have any pics of the engine seawater seacock that just leaked after feeling full suction in the closed position. You pass through "closed" when going from raw to fresh (hose adapter).

It looked brand new. Just like the new replacement.

I need to read the Catalina thread I guess.
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Old 28-04-2013, 17:03   #96
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

I gather from what your saying you couldn't use a crescent wrench and needed the handle to close the valve. If the ball were off center enough and you couldn't get the handle gear to mesh with the ball, which has happened, what type of tool do you think you could use to shut the valve off?

I don't have the website immediately at hand but a Catalina 34 owner tried to do what you did, but started by trying to simply take off the bolt tat holds the handle on while the valve was open (you can do that with any other seacock on the market) and it blew the handle right off. In the process, moved the ball slightly off center so he couldn't get the handle back on.

Regarding the water cops, hopefully, the upper portion of the valve will stop the leak coming from the lower section.

I really thank you for your input.
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Old 28-04-2013, 17:18   #97
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
I gather from what your saying you couldn't use a crescent wrench and needed the handle to close the valve. If the ball were off center enough and you couldn't get the handle gear to mesh with the ball, which has happened, what type of tool do you think you could use to shut the valve off?

I don't have the website immediately at hand but a Catalina 34 owner tried to do what you did, but started by trying to simply take off the bolt tat holds the handle on while the valve was open (you can do that with any other seacock on the market) and it blew the handle right off. In the process, moved the ball slightly off center so he couldn't get the handle back on.

Regarding the water cops, hopefully, the upper portion of the valve will stop the leak coming from the lower section.

I really thank you for your input.
I read both of the Catalina episodes. One guy unscrewed it. One, the handle fell off in their hand - like mine did. My screw was not stripped. What it screwed into broke off. Sorry the pic is not good. My first ever taken with the" new" digital camera. Looks OK on the screen till you get it home and blow it up. They blurry dots around the round part are the teeth that match "teeth" on the body of the seacock.

Once that is off (the handle) other things can shift. In my case it was off and I wanted it on. I had barely turned it and it came off. Only a small trickle of water. In thier cases it was open to closed when the handle came off. Lots of water and more "shift" of the components (orings).

Like the guy who was a plumber said. Amazing that there is a design that has only a tiny little screw holding everything from a catastrophe. No "packing nut" or anything else.

Kinda goofy if you ask me but then are there not literally thousands out there still floating?
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Old 28-04-2013, 17:27   #98
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Therapy - Thanks for the input, especially the pictures. They're a great help.

I don't think I asked you approximately what the age of the original Forespar seacock was? Do you have any idea?

Was the older larger engine unit the one pictured in your post? Also were they the exact same type?

I'm assuming that the lower hose is raw water to the engine and that the top hose is for your engine fresh water flush?

When you screwed the old handle into the ball did the bolt snug down tightly?

Would you be willing to dismantle the flange and cap plates, take out the races and tale a couple pictures of the ball? Leave the handle and ball in place.

Again, as I said to Captain Bill, thank you for your time to answer my questions.

Personnally, I surprised that Forespar didn't ship you a new one free including shipping.

Thanks
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Old 28-04-2013, 18:24   #99
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Therapy - I would use a stronger word than "Goofy." a lot stronger.

Regarding the number of boats that have these valves you're right. However, there are a lot of boats out there that still have gate valves that haven't worked in 40 years. And I'll bet that there are still a bunch of the the Chinese Groco's that had the stem and ball disintegrate because they were brass.

The fact is you should be able to take the handle off with out potentially sinking your boat, no matter whether the valve is open or closed.

Again thanks for your help.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:01   #100
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

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Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
Therapy - Thanks for the input, especially the pictures. They're a great help.

I don't think I asked you approximately what the age of the original Forespar seacock was? Do you have any idea? The Gemini was commissioned in September of 2008, used for less than a month and put up for sale. I bought it in March of 2009. The pictures of the broken handle were taken on May 31, 2009. Brand F#%&*ng new.

Was the older larger engine unit the one pictured in your post? Also were they the exact same type? No. the pics are of the one in the head. It allows fresh or sea for the head. I believe the seventh one down on this page - Boat Marine Plumbing OEM Smart Valve Thru Hull 1/2 " I think.

I'm assuming that the lower hose is raw water to the engine and that the top hose is for your engine fresh water flush? The one on the engine was I think a 1.5" one of these - Boat Marine Plumbing Engine Flush Out

When you screwed the old handle into the ball did the bolt snug down tightly? The broken handle I did nothing with. The screw was still screwed into what was part of the ball I guess. It fractured near the tip of the screw

Would you be willing to dismantle the flange and cap plates, take out the races and tale a couple pictures of the ball? Leave the handle and ball in place. Sorry, I have since sold the boat and old broken parts were thrown away to make room for other things in the garage.

Again, as I said to Captain Bill, thank you for your time to answer my questions.

Personnally, I surprised that Forespar didn't ship you a new one free including shipping. Heh.

Thanks
PS I do still have a 22lb Lewmar Delta for cheap.
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Old 28-04-2013, 19:40   #101
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Yes I'm "Personally, I surprised that Forespar didn't ship you a new one free including shipping."

I've been gathering information on the topic of seacocks and thru-hulls fore over 6 years.

Your candidness has been most helpful in sorting through this issue.
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Old 28-04-2013, 20:53   #102
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watercolor View Post
I gather from what your saying you couldn't use a crescent wrench and needed the handle to close the valve. If the ball were off center enough and you couldn't get the handle gear to mesh with the ball, which has happened, what type of tool do you think you could use to shut the valve off?

I don't have the website immediately at hand but a Catalina 34 owner tried to do what you did, but started by trying to simply take off the bolt tat holds the handle on while the valve was open (you can do that with any other seacock on the market) and it blew the handle right off. In the process, moved the ball slightly off center so he couldn't get the handle back on.

Regarding the water cops, hopefully, the upper portion of the valve will stop the leak coming from the lower section.

I really thank you for your input.
I think a crescent would have worked on the shaft, but I never tried it. I just put the handle back on. Since the valve was already closed it was just a steady trickle of water when the handle was off, but it may have been different if the valve was open. I just never took the handle off when the valve was open.

I don't thnk there is an issue with the water cop dye test as the overboard dump is not gravity powered but requires the macerator pump be turned on and it must pull the waste over a loop that is above the tank top level. It's not as dependable as gravity but in my experience presents less problems than a gravity system. Before any one starts arguing the virtues of a gravity system, they should consider what happens to the solids in the bottom of the tank in a gravity system. If you have never had to unpack a down tube full of old sh*t, you haven't experienced the true joys of a gravity dump that has not been used for a while.
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Old 01-05-2013, 16:44   #103
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Re: Through Hull Warning!

Tim,
I don't know if I missed it in this long thread, but would it be possible for you to list the sizes, part numbers etc of the through hulls & valves that you decide to use. I too want to replace all of mine on our L380 so this info would be greatly appreciated when the time comes.

Thanks

Dave
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