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Old 28-06-2016, 02:35   #1
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The hunt begins

Hi All, my wife and I live in France and have decided enough is enough, time to leave Normandy behind and begin a new life onboard. We are considering either a Lagoon 380 or 440. I've spent quite a bit of time on a 440 but my wife has never been aboard either boat.
Can anyone help with putting us in touch with some Lagoon owners in the Normandy / Brittany regions so we could make a time to go and see a boat "live".
While the 380 is going to be cheaper, I'm not sure if it would be big enough as a alive aboard boat so it would be great to compare the two.

Any help would be appreciated.

Jonathan
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Old 28-06-2016, 02:43   #2
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Re: The hunt begins

I saw a lagoon 380 in Melbourne recently. It's a hell of a big boat still, even if it is the baby sister

Nothing I could ever afford

Good luck with it.
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Old 28-06-2016, 16:35   #3
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Re: The hunt begins

All I could add is don't discount other catamarans, the 380 is a great boat the 440 a much bigger boat.
If you can afford a 440 do it.
I would not want any more boat than mine, I fit right between your 2 choices.
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Old 02-07-2016, 16:41   #4
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Re: The hunt begins

Big difference between a 380 and a 440.

420 is the best. Might be a little biased of course.




Bob
CASABLANCA L420 #86
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Old 10-07-2016, 15:45   #5
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Re: The hunt begins

I agree with the prior statement "there is a huge difference between 380 and 440" and we are not speaking about the price which is obvious.

My wife and I are full-time live-aboards cruising the Caribbean on a Lagoon 39. We love our boat and happy with our decision to purchase yet no boat is perfect in all regards. From our experience we share below some things your wife and you may elect to consider:

1.) 440 operating costs can approach three times what it costs to operate and maintain a 380. Slip rental, dockage, bottom job and insurance are prime examples.

2.) Sailing characteristics are significant. For instance, 440 will hobby-horse much less if at all, while this effect is common and frequent on the 380. Making long passages to windward and/or anytime you have a bearing within 60 degrees of swells makes for an uncomfortable ride.

3.) Nearly all the sailing equipment is larger on the 440 as one would expect so considerations of how experienced and strength of captain and crew is important consideration.

4.) The 440 has space to provide all the creature comforts one could desire (i.e. AC, microwave, washer/dryier, generator, large refrig/freezer, etc.) I suppose one could load up a 380 with all this stuff, but the boat's sailing performance is likely to suffer due to the increased weight. And you will find that 380 space becomes very limited for storage of provisions, clothing etc. If you are not desiring all these creature comforts then you may be paying for space that is not used.

On another note, if sailing the Caribbean you will see a lot of Lagoons. In fact I'd venture it is by far the most common "cat" we see here. They are very popular and have a large following. That is an important fact when the time comes to finally sale, as we all must.
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Old 10-07-2016, 16:20   #6
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Re: The hunt begins

Hi,

By my standards 380 is huge to live aboard. I would only buy a bigger cat if I were to sail it a lot in rough waters.

b.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:59   #7
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Re: The hunt begins

Here is our two penneth on the subject.
We bought a 380 last year - we are a couple in our 50's who are brand new sailors. We love our 380 - spend about half our time on her in the Ionian but not full time live aboards. There is more than enough space for everything you will need - we have a watermaker, microwave, washing machine etc. There is a huge amount of storage in cupboards, under the seating, in the outside lockers. We cannot comment on how she sails compared to other Cats as we have not sailed anything else, but we find her very comfortable in rough conditions ( we have been out in force 6/7 on two occasions ). The hardest part for us so far has been med mooring to a quay and getting into tight spots between other boats - we are so glad we didn't buy anything bigger at this stage. We were warned about the amount of time and effort needed maintaining the boat ( and cleaning her ) and this is so true. Our boat is only 4 years old, never chartered and well looked after, but we are forever mending pumps, toilets, fridges etc ( not that we mind, but it wouldn't suit somebody who can't do these things themselves). We have added a waste tank to the owners side ( can't imagine why this is not standard equipment ). The watermaker and extra fuel tank are so important to us - it means we don't have to call into port all the time. Hope this helps !! Paul & Tracey
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Old 11-07-2016, 21:14   #8
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Re: The hunt begins

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Originally Posted by Haywoods View Post
Here is our two penneth on the subject.
We bought a 380 last year - we are a couple in our 50's who are brand new sailors. We love our 380 - spend about half our time on her in the Ionian but not full time live aboards. There is more than enough space for everything you will need - we have a watermaker, microwave, washing machine etc. There is a huge amount of storage in cupboards, under the seating, in the outside lockers. We cannot comment on how she sails compared to other Cats as we have not sailed anything else, but we find her very comfortable in rough conditions ( we have been out in force 6/7 on two occasions ). The hardest part for us so far has been med mooring to a quay and getting into tight spots between other boats - we are so glad we didn't buy anything bigger at this stage. We were warned about the amount of time and effort needed maintaining the boat ( and cleaning her ) and this is so true. Our boat is only 4 years old, never chartered and well looked after, but we are forever mending pumps, toilets, fridges etc ( not that we mind, but it wouldn't suit somebody who can't do these things themselves). We have added a waste tank to the owners side ( can't imagine why this is not standard equipment ). The watermaker and extra fuel tank are so important to us - it means we don't have to call into port all the time. Hope this helps !! Paul & Tracey
Thanks everyone for the input. It certainly helps getting some 'inside' information. The tips about mooring difficulties and the maintenance are also gold. And I'm sure the cost of the watermaker and extra fuel tank are offset by the savings by not having to use marinas as often.

We are heading to Greece today to do some sailing on a friend's monohull. I'm sure we will get a chance to look over some cats while we are there.

Thanks, JR
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Old 11-07-2016, 21:20   #9
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Re: The hunt begins

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Originally Posted by faa50 View Post
I agree with the prior statement "there is a huge difference between 380 and 440" and we are not speaking about the price which is obvious.

My wife and I are full-time live-aboards cruising the Caribbean on a Lagoon 39. We love our boat and happy with our decision to purchase yet no boat is perfect in all regards. From our experience we share below some things your wife and you may elect to consider:

1.) 440 operating costs can approach three times what it costs to operate and maintain a 380. Slip rental, dockage, bottom job and insurance are prime examples.

2.) Sailing characteristics are significant. For instance, 440 will hobby-horse much less if at all, while this effect is common and frequent on the 380. Making long passages to windward and/or anytime you have a bearing within 60 degrees of swells makes for an uncomfortable ride.

3.) Nearly all the sailing equipment is larger on the 440 as one would expect so considerations of how experienced and strength of captain and crew is important consideration.

4.) The 440 has space to provide all the creature comforts one could desire (i.e. AC, microwave, washer/dryier, generator, large refrig/freezer, etc.) I suppose one could load up a 380 with all this stuff, but the boat's sailing performance is likely to suffer due to the increased weight. And you will find that 380 space becomes very limited for storage of provisions, clothing etc. If you are not desiring all these creature comforts then you may be paying for space that is not used.

On another note, if sailing the Caribbean you will see a lot of Lagoons. In fact I'd venture it is by far the most common "cat" we see here. They are very popular and have a large following. That is an important fact when the time comes to finally sale, as we all must.
Thanks, I hear what you are saying about everything being that much bigger and the added expense involved with a 440. We are considering doing some chartering to offset costs so that's where the bigger boat would come in.
Do you think it would be practical to take 2 or 4 people onboard a 380 for chartering or would it be too cramped?
JR
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Old 11-07-2016, 21:23   #10
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Re: The hunt begins

I got on board both the 38 and 40 at the Melbourne boat show, side by side. They are WAAAAY different in available space, it's like there's an extra 2 ft in many different places. The staterooms were bigger, shower, heads, bathroom, living etc, it was very noticeable. I'd put a 40 on your list for sure (assuming there are a few about).
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:04   #11
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Re: The hunt begins

We are heading back to Greece in 2 weeks time. If you are still out there, you are welcome to come and look around her and have a chat. Paul & Tracey
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Old 12-07-2016, 22:42   #12
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Re: The hunt begins

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1.) 440 operating costs can approach three times what it costs to operate and maintain a 380. Slip rental, dockage, bottom job and insurance are prime examples.
I am curious. How do you arrive at the 3x operating cost estimate?
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Old 13-07-2016, 05:52   #13
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Re: The hunt begins

JR - In regard to a crewed charter on a 380, it certainly is possible. The 380 has a lot of space to most people's standards and has a second head and berths. Guests would typically be living in the starboard hull, whereas as Captain and crew living in port hull.

Possible something you may wish to consider as to feasibility and success at chartering is: what are other crewed charter boats offering clients. We see quite a few plying the waters especially in the Virgin Islands. These boats are usually either 450 or 620 Lagoons, that is not to say there aren't 380s doing the same thing we just don't recall seeing any. The 450s and 620 are decked out with just about every imaginable water toy ( paddle boards, rafts, floats, dive tanks and gear, bean bags for on-deck seating, outside cooking and bar area) the list goes on. My guess is that these represent your competition. A possible better option is day sails for tourists. We see very inexpensive and limited equipped boats being very successful with 4 hr cruises to a beach or snorkel location. Many times they have 4-8 paying clients especially during peak season.

Both the Captain and boat will need to be licensed and insured and all local permits and taxes addressed or you can face serious penalties including the lose of your boat. Authorities are looking for individuals attempting to operate illegally. Most foreign countries have laws preventing foreigners from operating businesses without a lengthy visa process. Best to research first before setting expectations.

In regard to how a 440's operating cost can APPROACH three times the operating costs here are a couple more specific examples:

1. Full coverage Insurance premiums are is based on a boat's hull value. In a crude sense if we were able to compare two identically equipped, condition, age, engine hours etc. Lagoons (in reality that is practically impossible) one a 380 and the second a 440 the only difference being hull size, we can expect to see a difference in value 50%-75% more possible as much as double the cost of a 380. The premium will reflect this increased value.

2. Dockage rates in many locals is by the foot, until you come to catamarans then frequently it is by the square foot so as to address the multihull issue. Some marines will simply charge for a double slip based on LOA. Due to the 440s increased LOA and square footage you can expect to pay significantly more.

3. Engines are larger on a 440 and will burn more fuel per hour. Sail area is greater on 440 hence cost more to replace. Heads and regrigeration are more numerous and/or larger so parts cost more and the list goes on.

4. Power needs of a 440 one would expect are greater than a 380 which will require more solar or wind generation equipment.

5. Custom fees vary by country. Often these fees in-part are based on LOA of a boat. Some like St. Barts go by square footage. Again increased cost for the 440.

6. Polishing or buffing the hull is charged by the square foot by some vendors. Bottom jobs for the labor often are similar. Size does matter.

Certainly everyone's situation or desires are different. So the above are simple generalities to use as a guideline.

Other sources and useful information is found f you check out books by Neigel Calder, Purdies and others. You'll read how they estimate the cost as the size of a boat increases.
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Old 13-07-2016, 06:56   #14
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Re: The hunt begins

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabgo View Post
I am curious. How do you arrive at the 3x operating cost estimate?
Maybe just a typo there.

b.
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Old 13-07-2016, 07:26   #15
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Re: The hunt begins

And here I have been thinking our 38' Mono was more boat than we needed.
You know I guess bigger is always nicer, usually means more comfortable and if everything else is equal, faster too.
I'd do my due diligence on that Charter thing though, gut feeling is it's not as easy to make money that was as you think.
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