380 S2: Ripped Out Mooring Cleats

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by monte

........Talbot, what did you bed the plate in to give uniform contact with the deck underside?

A product called Boatseal. Not as difficult to use as some, and possible after use to seperate the parts (eventually!!!!) It also comes in smaller tubes than other products so you dont waste as much!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by rabbi

However from the lack of "I had that, too" responses it seems a very uncommon damage. Which is also something that I expected, and of course contrary what the broker is telling me.

Boat owners can be very "shy" about admitting defects or shortcomings with their boats, especially those designed in - at least until after they have sold them! In any event "they all do that" is not a reason to buy! (not to say that alone is a deal breaker - everything else being ok and the fix needed being reflected in the price.....but nonetheless IMO a bit of a heads up to look closely elsewhere).

Although not Lagoon / Catamaran specific, over here we have an exposed anchorage (mooring field) that is known to get a bit windy . Every couple of years a boat or 2 breaks loose - sometimes the mooring line and cleat remains firmly attached to the foredeck , it is just that the deck is no longer attached to the boat (or at least a very large chunk of foredeck). A couple of washers (even big ones) not sufficient for some serious wind / swell.

In regard to the fix, for backing (on a cleat intended to hold the boat come what may) I would be happy with plywood (with at least large washers) - an inch of it and as large as practicable to fit (a foot in each direction would be nice, at least to sleep soundly in bed!) and ideally also teed / glassed into a corner........of course with a mono weight not such a biggie for me.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rabbi

folks,

I have seen a 380 S2 where the previous owner obviously had some problems mooring the boat. I guess many consider the original cleats and especially the washers under the cleats undersized but this I had not expected:

Several cleats have been ripped straight out of the hull, leaving different levels of damage to the deck / hull structure. The stern and mid cleats seem to have separated fairly easily, the dinghy cleats have taken quite a chunk gelcoat with them.
But the worst und my prime concern is the bow cleat where a letter sized piece of the deck / hull structure has been lost, which includes the section with the hull-deck join.

The damage has been repaired by the sort professionals who use silicone for bedding the cleats...

Obviously this repair is not strucutrally sound, the area shows significant cracks around the cleats again. My guess is they put one layer of fiberglass under the hole, and added filler and gelcoat.


I am interested in knowing if other people have experienced the same issue and if / how they achieved a structurally sound repair.

Thanks,
rabbi

Rabbi here's my concern. This isn't a mooring problem. It takes a lot of force to rip out a cleat, along with a lack of backing plates (still possible, but harder to do).

This didn't happen at a mooring. Very often they get ripped off trying to pull a boat off a hard grounding.

Have you had a surveyor look at this boat?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rabbi

That mirrors pretty much what I thought. Thanks for your insight.

However from the lack of "I had that, too" responses it seems a very uncommon damage. Which is also something that I expected, and of course contrary what the broker is telling me.

Thanks again

A boat broker is like a real estate broker. He is not working for you. He is working for the seller.

Get a boat survey done by a certified boat surveyor. THAT person is working for you. In fact, he or she can't release his or her findings to anyone but you.

[rabbi]

Maybe I should mention that skipping the survey is out of question. A survey will be done for sure.


I just wanted to check if others have experienced the same and if someone with the same unfortunate experience managed to successfully repair.
Better get a first impression now than after spending >1k on a survey and another trip.

However I'm not sure about the pull off reef idea. I have seen boats pulled off reefs but I find it hard to imagine how they could manage to tear out 5 cleats including the dinghy cleats and damage the other 3 in one single incident. Unless they happen to do that multiple times.
Having a permanent berth at a port with some swell and a high wall sounds reasonable to me.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Maybe I should mention that skipping the survey is out of question. A survey will be done for sure.


I just wanted to check if others have experienced the same and if someone with the same unfortunate experience managed to successfully repair.
Better get a first impression now than after spending >1k on a survey and another trip.

However I'm not sure about the pull off reef idea. I have seen boats pulled off reefs but I find it hard to imagine how they could manage to tear out 5 cleats including the dinghy cleats and damage the other 3 in one single incident. Unless they happen to do that multiple times.
Having a permanent berth at a port with some swell and a high wall sounds reasonable to me.

I haven't seen cleats ripped out by extreme tides because we don't have them here, but I have seen them ripped out because they weren't instaalled properly (with backing plates), and then ripped out while being towed off a grounding. I can't picture so many being ripped out at once from a towing, UNLESS it were VERY high and dry and multiple boats were pulling, something I have seen done here.

In that case I would want to make sure that nothing on the bottom had been damaged.

Is the owner still around? How does he explain it?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by sww914

You're not going to like this.
Remove the hardware. Grind out all of the damaged fiberglass, as far as it takes to get back to clear glass, not white and broken. Grind a taper, trying to achieve 12:1, you may not be able to but as wide of a bonding area as possible.
Clean it all very well.
You may need to build some "forms" on the inside to hold the new glass. (think of concrete construction, you'll get the idea)
Start rebuilding the glass.
Sand it all flat and smooth. Flat first, then smooth.
Fix the gelcoat or paint as the case may be.
Drill holes for the hardware.
Make big stainless backing plates. Washers didn't work last time, they won't work this time either.
Bed everything the way that you chose. I subscribe to mainesail's methods with butyl tape. In the end you'll do what you want and most methods will work for varying lengths of time.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

A boat broker is like a real estate broker. He is not working for you. He is working for the seller.

Get a boat survey done by a certified boat surveyor. THAT person is working for you. In fact, he or she can't release his or her findings to anyone but you.

Inadequate cleats are a well known issue with french production cats particually using med mooring techniques in heavy weather. Can be a problem on FP's as well as Lagoons.

Imagine is also an issue on other production vessels including monos.

Just means upgrading a tsome stage as Rabbi is having to do.

Cheers

[rabbi]

We will see if my offer goes through. The seller seems to have a hard time thinking.

But I agree that the factory installed cleats need some work on the Lagoons that I know (380 and 410). Both should have large backplates added instead of the small washers. If possible before they are torn out...

Originally Posted by downunder

Inadequate cleats are a well known issue with french production cats particually using med mooring techniques in heavy weather. Can be a problem on FP's as well as Lagoons.

Imagine is also an issue on other production vessels including monos.

Just means upgrading a tsome stage as Rabbi is having to do.

Cheers

[Shanaly]

not sure what access you have to the underside. if you have good access, I suggest you put in a ^ - shaped hot rolled steel joist, or a box section. make that stretch to any joists or frames and bolt them to it with angle iron. Fill gaps with any firm filler to stabilise.

[Lagoon4us]

Lagoons typically site the cleats over a deck/hull joint, they use excessively long studs that are threaded into the cleat to fix the three items together (cleat/deck/hull flange).

They use a large OD SS Washer on each cleats underside to try to bear the load.

I've heard of two 450's popping the cleat out of the deck in a swell whilst tied to a Quay wall, it was an upward pull in both cases.

We have re-done all our cleats with a piece of Ally flat bar 80mm x 200 long x 8mm thick
to more spread the load, flat washers just don't cut it especially if a boat is tied tight in a swell with up or down angle on the line to the bollard etc....

Both instances of 'pulled out cleats' happened to a bare boat charter operators boats in Croatia.

Cheers

[Lagoon4us]

There's little room, even for tightening you need a tube spanner to access. The forward ones are ok, this is the plates we made and fitted.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Both instances of 'pulled out cleats' happened to a bare boat charter operators boats in Croatia.

Cheers

To be fair to Lagoon, an upward pull is about the hardest thing for a cleat to cope with.

Am guessing in the area of Croatia that the boat operated in lots of high docks / harbour walls. Same over here, now and again have seen the odd cleat pull out of a deck (never designed to hang the weight of a boat from them!), including on traditional well built wooden boats (yer know, the ones they did everything "properly" on in the good old days , and not ). Having said that, from the descriptions given the cleats in this case seem to be both badly positioned and a tad lightly fixed (at least for my comfort)........but forewarned is forearmed .

[Lagoon4us]

True .... Cheers

[mrcarson]

I May be slower in my Steel yachts. But seas are softer. I can carry more crap and also I have lifted my 17 ton 42 fter off cradle by it's deck cleats for a keel bottom job. (Cracked along weld where I hit a UNcharted reef at speed).