450: Rigging the Spinnaker

[Rob_ster]

Dear Group

I am looking to set up the Spinnaker on a Lagoon 450, does anyone have any pics on how to set up all the sheets etc. We received the boat and all the Spinnaker components were piled up in the front forepeak and just trying to get a handle on where everything goes.

It is the Sock Type, I presume symmetrical Spinnaker.

Many thanks for listening.

Robin

[tuskie]

Hey Robin. Congratulations on your new 450. Wishing you many happy years on board ahead.

Rigging and using a spinnaker is a big subject, with lots of "ifs", "buts" and "maybes". There are alternative methods and opinions. As no one else has posted, I'll try "Spinnakers 101".

For a socked symmetrical spinnaker you'll need at least 3 lines; a halyard, usually same as gennaker, and two control lines, one to each clew. Each should be about twice boat length. Even though you will be running this sail downwind you will usually find the apparent wind will be a bit to one side. Run the control line on this side through the bow block and back along the deck to a winch, and call it a "guy". Next run the leeward control line outside the shrouds, through an aft block to a winch and call it a "sheet". That's the simplest rig and a good way to start.

Flying your beast is another matter. If you're inexperienced, I'd recommend getting someone who isn't to help for the maiden flight. Pick a day with 5 to 10 knots and little traffic. Use your motors for a start, to keep the boat heading slowly down wind. Haul on the lift line attached to the sniffer sock collar. It should slide up the spinnaker and allow the wind to fill it. Hang on to the lift line /douse line and make it secure to a cleat on the foredeck, as you don't want it to blow out of reach. Adjust the sheet and guy to get a good shape to the sail.

To douse the spinnaker, firstly don't wait for the wind to get too strong. Practice in light winds. Trim in the guy, and slacken the sheet whilst the most obese crew member hauls down the snuffer sock collar. If you can sock the spinnaker, lower the halyard and not allow either sheet or guy to trail in the water, then congratulate yourselves because you have done better than I often do!

[feebs]

Also have a look at parasailor university on YouTube

https://youtu.be/rIKc_-CXcrY

It covers managing a sock quite well.

Although they use double sheets/guys on each clew, as Tuskie suggests, one line each side is good to start with.

Enjoy

[UNCIVILIZED]

In case it's not common knowledge: Avoid using Stopper Knots on ALL Control Spinnaker Lines. Halyards, Sheets, Guys, Tackline, etc. As there will be times when you just need to let one or all of them run, at which point, knots are hazardous to the boat's health! And via corollary, yours too.

[PaulinOz]

Rob_ster: Do you have a Fly bridge or a Sport Top 450?
They will run the lines differently.

Is it a Symmetrical or an Asymmetrical.
It will make a big difference to setup.

Does your boat have a Bow sprite?

[DavefromNZ]

Wingaker on L450
https://youtu.be/zcRreJQ8IZY
https://youtu.be/RvFfNeRRE3c

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

In case it's not common knowledge: Avoid using Stopper Knots on ALL Control Spinnaker Lines. Halyards, Sheets, Guys, Tackline, etc. As there will be times when you just need to let one or all of them run, at which point, knots are hazardous to the boat's health! And via corollary, yours too.

Guys, I just got a PM on this from a respected regular here on CF. Stating that my suggested practices of not tying any stopper knots in spinnaker gear is his SOP. However there was a bit of unspoken uncertainty as to why having spin gear free to run is good practice. And my apologies to him if I misread the PM on this. But I’d still like to clarify the above posting.

I was taught that lines connected to kites (spinnakers) need to be free to run for when the sail gets out of hand. Be that an error on someone’s part during a hoist or takedown. Such as when a kite gets dropped in the water, but the sheets & guys are still attached via the cockpit winches. AKA “shrimping”. Or that a squall or big puff comes in from nowhere, & you suddenly have WAY too much sail up thanks to the kite.
Via either of these, or some other similar one, a kite’s a sail that can knock a mono far enough over so that her rig’s in the water. Even to the point where she can be sunk due to downflooding. Or pin her over far enough so that if there are waves of any size present, they’ll roll her well past 90 deg.

And I’ve been on boats from 20’ to 60’+ where all of the above except sinking’s happened. Sometimes even on otherwise calm days where downdrafts/microbursts nailed us so quickly that even with us letting the sheets & guys run instantly, we got knocked to 70deg with the first blast. And things would have been much, much worse if we’d not been able to loose most of the effective area of the kite in 10 sec or less.

Would such weather, or going shrimping, definitively cause say a Lagoon to flip? I can’t say. Though it would seem that it’s done it to a few of Chris White’s boats, as well as many, many other multi’s (& mono’s). Hence my 1st post in this thread. One I’d thought fairly unnecessary due to the common sense reasoning behind same. However, it seems that I was in error on that (sorry).And in hindsight, the No Knots rule was schooled into me by pro’s somewhere around age 17. So hopefully I’ll be forgiven for my goof.

Anyway, such is why knots in spinnaker gear are Bad Juju. As well as why all crew ALWAYS carry knives (anchored & under sail). In addition to a couple more being secured permanently on deck in strategic locations. Which, they’re more apt to be needed & used than are life jackets. So keep’em handy; on your person, & in your mind. And NO KNOTS in any lines connected to kites!!!

[tuskie]

[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][SIZE=3]Would such weather, or going shrimping, definitively cause say a Lagoon to flip? [/QUOTE]

Not sure about flipping, but I know of at least one Lagoon that lost it's rig as a result of a foresail in the water. Other factors and "modifications" also contributed.

[Bean Counter]

So what is the story behind the lost rig?

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by tuskie

[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=black][SIZE=3]Would such weather, or going shrimping, definitively cause say a Lagoon to flip?

Not sure about flipping, but I know of at least one Lagoon that lost it's rig as a result of a foresail in the water. Other factors and "modifications" also contributed.[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure that Lagoons are designed such that the rig actually can't flip the boat. The mast will break first. Of course wind and waves are a different story.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

So what is the story behind the lost rig?

Not prepared to tell stories without supporting facts, and without owner's permission.

Let's just say hypothetically, that if the shock cord that Lagoon supplies from prodder tip to top of cross beam sea-gull striker was replaced with something stronger and non-elastic, say rigging wire or rod. If a foresail attached to the prodder was "shrimped", boat momentum could bend seagull striker forward, fore beam could bend, forestay could slacken and rig could come down, hypothetically.

[UNCIVILIZED]

As long as we're talking hypotheticals... Imagine that you're taking down the spinnaker because the wind's gone from 15kts to 25kts (& strengthening). And you dropped it in the water 1/2 or more of the way through the takedown. Where the kite then fills with water, thus effectively anchoring the boat. Which causes you to rapidly be pulled, & get stuck, beam on to some medium or short period 4m swells.

That, or, imagine that the above happens while you were sliding down said waves at 8-12kts (or more). So then all of a sudden you get those huge loads from the boat's almost instant stopping. Most of them being in the rigging.

Either way I'm guessing that bad things would probably ensue, though as to what exactly I can't say. It'd be "expensive" though, for sure. And 6 months down the road isaid mishap could make for a good story over cocktails... Maybe.

[rallyman1122]

Thank you to tuskie and UNCIVILIZED, as well as others, for your comments. A very good learning opportunity provided without the pain of inexperience providing it in real life

[Rob_ster]

Thanks to all for the responses, apologies for the delay in replying.

The Lagoon in question is a hardtop 450. And i believe the Spinnaker is a Symmetrical one. Still blowing a decent wind here so not able to hoist it yet to check it out.

Rob