440: Replacing Skin Fittings And Ball-valves The Boat's 5 Years Old.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by sharpey

Fair enough...All the best with it It's a job well worth doing (whether using Marelon or Bronze), just for the peace of mind!

I suspect my ball valves will be getting more "exercise" than I do when they're installed, all though I suspect the contortionist positions required to access them should help me break a sweat! Should make the beer taste better afterwards

Thank you

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by John_ZA

Thanks for sharing Frank and for showing remarkable restraint from the bs comments. I am absolutely astounded how much one mans ability to do things the way he wants it done offends people that it has fa to do with in the first place.

Thank you

[Watercolor]

Lagoon4us you stated:

"Lagoons are fitted from the factory with brass ball-valves, we are cruising foreign countries, slipping is imminent for us, I chose to do something. Is there any part of this you don't understand?”

I apologize. I thought you were looking for some comment as to your potential choice of product. Had I realized that you had already purchased these fittings, I would have responded differently, if at all. However, that being said, I stand by the facts as I presented them, including the 60% figure.

I will be posting another comment after this on as I feel the general issue raised, in particular, by Ed Griffin’s remarks, deserve comment. So the remainder I’ll try and gear that response to members of the forum who responded to your post and may like to mull over the facts.

Good luck and fair winds

[Lagoon4us]

Post 1# shows the pictures and tells the story of the initialisation of this particular project that will be of interest to all Lagoon owners simply because of the builders choice to install brass ball valves in lieu of an acceptable valve.

You would probably achieve more and be fairer to Ed by emailing Ed and posting the results of his response in the way Mark did.

Ed's comments are his own, he makes these units, it's his product reputation you are commenting on hence my advice.

Cheers.

[neilpride]

600$ bucks in Plastic is not big deal, if i remember the rounded bottom sections of lagoons as Pajots dont allow for a perfect flat fit of some metal fitings, it happen to me changing some truhulls in a Privilege , leaving a big gap to fill with 5200, so the plastic one in the last turns allow a bit of flexible fit in the hull closing the gap, for me Plastic is not a option , i have some valves in places where a Gorilla can drop their weight , but if your fittings are enclosed in hiden places with no danger of damaged , go ahead, Cheers...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Today i have measured then placed one of the components in a jar of seawater, at the end of a 7 day period i'll re-measure, with digital callipers looking for dimensional changes, i'll also put a load on it and measure elongation compared to a dry unit.

Absorption of the water is the alleged problem.

I'll post photo's showing the results, to deteriorate by 60% is a huge leap so we should see quite a change in the hardness, weight and dimensions.

Will be interesting to see how sincere some posters are in their FACTS.

You ought to weigh it before the 7 day immersion and repeat weighing daily....

[Lagoon4us]

Cn do, tomorrow 1pm is 1st day. Cheers

[careka]

Doing good Frank.

[Watercolor]

Lagoon4us –

I debated whether to follow up on my earlier comments. That was until I saw Jedi’s post about your test and your comment, “Will be interesting to see how sincere some posters are in their FACTS.” Please remember, TRUDESIGN has not provided either me or Mark with any FACTS about their material, so I used Dupont’s data on the material Forespar calls “MARELON.”

I’m surprised that the numbers (7 days and 60%) when used as part of a question would be construed by anyone as facts, even though both numbers are valid.

Instead of trying, via your “test,” to verify my “facts and sincerity”, I suggest that you request the following information from TRUDESIGN’s Ed Griffin, making sure you ask for the EMS-Givory data sheets that provide the following: type of nylon resin, resin characteristics, % glass, % and type of fillers, type glass (long/short), and tensile strength, flexural modulus, elongation (bendability). The last three items in Dry as Molded, 50% relative humidity, 100% relative humidity, and saturation for starters. I tried 3 times in 2012 to get that information and like Mark, got next to nothing back. I intend to give it one more try.

However, here are the hard facts about 60%+ degradation numbers. Nonsense it’s not.

The data for Forespar’s Marelon, (AKA Dupont Zytel nylon 70G13L BK) is taken directly from Dupont’s data sheet: http://www.valueplastics.com/technic...nformation.pdf

Tensile strength (TS) Flexural modulus (FM) Elongation*

Dry as molded 17,500 psi 700,000 psi 3
50% Relative Humidity 12,000 psi 400,000 psi 8
% Change (DAM to 50%RH) 31.4% 42.9% 167%
100% Relative Humidity 7,500 psi 250,000 psi 11
% Change (DAM to 100%RH) 57.1% 64.3% 267%

These are the two strength characteristics (tensile strength and flexural modulus) that are used by ISO. The average of those values equals 60.7%, the 60%+ that Ed Griffin called "nonsense."

* As the elongation numbers increase, the materials “bendability” increases. At 100% humidity the TRUDESIGN thru-hull fitting will bend far more than the TRUDESIGN static load test picture show.

It should be noted that Shear Strength is also negatively impacted by moisture. You may not be concerned with impact, but not every boat is as impact free as yours. The exposed threaded part of any thru-hull, like those found on the TRUDESIGN units, without any shielding and a bolted down flanged base, will bend under load, but will very likely to shear on impact.

I’m curious, as was another person on this thread, about your dual position regarding ISO and their thru-hulls and seacock standards. You stated, and I quote: “Beneteau' are very dodgy, they comply with a (ISO) standard that's dubious to say the least”. I agree and I also feel 9093-2 is a dubious non-metal standard, for example, why does ISO use a dry as molded standard for thru-hulls and seacocks that spend 100% of their time in water? My question is, If you feel that the ISO metal seacock and thru-hull standard is dubious, why would you think the ISO 9093-2 non-metal standard is less dubious?

Regarding your test, the test was compromised well before you put the fitting in water. Jedi was correct when he said: “You ought to weigh it before the 7 day immersion and repeat weighing daily.” Saturation is measured as a % weight change from DAM (Dry as Molded). The issue is simple, the fitting you used has had a lot of time since it was molded to now to pick up ambient moisture. My guess is your part stabilized at around 75% saturation before immersion. Saturation in nylon is curvilinear as is the de-saturation curve. Different nylons change the curve slightly, but the trend is always significant acceleration then slowing. The curve starts out like a rabbit, then turns into a tortoise.

Several additional factors impact how quickly nylon absorbs moisture. Three factors clearly apply in your case, the actual material used, material thickness and temperature. The thicker the material the longer it takes to reach saturation and the warmer the temperature, the quicker it takes to reach absorption. If your fitting is a thru-hull, the time line will be far longer than 7 days or even 7 weeks. I looked at the temperatures and humidity levels on the Croatian coast, if the temperature is less than a steady 73 degrees the time line will be much longer again.

There is another factor, it has always seemed illogical to me, but I have read that, and I assume it’s true, but not necessarily with all nylons, is that the swelling seems to “grow” after full saturation as been reached. Again, the only numbers of value to you will be EMS’s.

There have been many past threads posted asking about the pros and cons of plastic and metal thru-hulls and seacocks on this and other boating forums. And several individuals commenting on this thread have expressed real and valid concerns about the existing non-metal thru-hulls and seacocks. So I’ll be following up with another post directed to them.

I would love to see EMS’s data and would be pleased to know that there is a real, safe, reasonably priced non-metal seacock available for the marine market.

Again good luck and fair winds

[Lagoon4us]

Watercolour, In the Lagoon Forum there's endless rabbiting comment regarding the skin fittings that are installed by BENETEAU as the builder.

This history of vehement critique that at times went quite personal was largely the work of 'trolls' and idiots.

Your initial post locked right into this mould, essentially a one line baiting jibe at my attempt to share what we are doing about our boat and it's equipment.

Lagoon install brass ball-valves for cocks. These valves are what you might fit on a sump drain on a waste oil storage. Brass is just not acceptable as a seacock however the CE Certification has, i believe a 5 year warranty for want of a better word. So as long as it last 5years great, job done.

Somehow the valves haven't failed as in there are no incidents logged anywhere on the net complaining failure has caused an inundation.

The skin fittings may well be bronze, i checked around 7 boats that were slipped last season and their colour indicated by chart reference that they were bronze.

What i post is largely in the Lagoon Forum, my reasons are to inspire or assist others with Lagoon's. When winter clears we are off to Greece, i'll hardly be on the Forum but right now i'm in the middle of doing interesting (to Lagoon owners) projects.

Don't take my post as personal, continually the armchair brigade attack with there 'know it all but have done f'n nothing googling fingers' plucking their intelligence from the net. On top of that there's also an amount of stupid multi/mono aggrievance that's just so dumb but it's propagated by the trolls continually.

I accept these valves that i'm installing as 'suitable for purpose' in Australia we have very strong consumer laws, Lagoon would not get away with brass valves if built in OZ or NZ let alone 'TRUDESIGN' market a valve that failed due to design/material chosen, logic says why would they bother? The market for valves is small it's not like a get rich whack them out and take the money scenario......

Personally i don't believe i'm their first customer, i'm interested in your technical discussion however to be honest i'm a retired boatbuilder/project manager not a scientist.

Today i go to SPLIT and pick up my aluminium solar supports from the powder coaters, i'll post that also as a thread to give ideas to other Lagoon owners interested in doing the same, do i know it all? NOPE but i do like to get people to think out of the square a little.

Cheers.

[dirkdig]

I think the thru hulls are brone and the valves are brass looking at them,

May get away with just replacing valves?
This is on a 2005 Lagoon 440.
Any thoughts Frank?

[dirkdig]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

I think the thru hulls are brone and the valves are brass looking at them,

May get away with just replacing valves?
This is on a 2005 Lagoon 440.
Any thoughts Frank?

I think the thruhulls are Bronze is what i meant to type

[goboatingnow]

Frank, why not use bronze ball valves, widely available, I beleive the true-hulls are bronze are they not?

bronze valves are available all over Europe

Dave

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

I think the thru hulls are brone and the valves are brass looking at them,

May get away with just replacing valves?
This is on a 2005 Lagoon 440.
Any thoughts Frank?

Well, now I know why Lagoon4us is replacing them. I would not even accept delivery of a boat with those! And yes, the valve needs support behind it and be fastened to that support.

See if you can get the Groco flanged adapters, thru-hull fittings, valves and some female-male elbows. Then next haul-out replace them. The work is in ordering the parts, because replacing is a quick and easy job.

[goboatingnow]

And yes, the valve needs support behind it and be fastened to that support.

well thats eliminated virtually every production boat afloat, from HR and Oyster down.


in reality a bronze tr- hull and a backing board bonded in is way more then adequate and will see you to the boats end of life.
Dave