Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-08-2016, 17:40   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,037
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
OK, so instead of getting grumpy and defensive, educate me.


My experience with rope clutches has been that they are hard on rope, they creep under load, they can be very difficult, verging on impossible, to release under load, and they can jam easily if there's any twist in the rope.


But I admit, I've never sailed on a boat where the headsail sheets ran through clutches. Which is why I found it amazing.


So tell me the benefits of having your sheets on clutches, rather than having a port and a starboard winch for them. (Aside from saving a few hundred dollars.)
Don't feel too lost on this one. I have never used a clutch on a jib sheet and never will. On the other hand the mainsheet uses a clutch. The big factor there is the 4:1 load reduction from the blocks.
__________________

__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 17:42   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,376
Images: 69
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Yes, I had to ease the load or the clutch wouldn't open. If reefing I do ease the mainsheet, we don't use a cunningham and don't have a vang.


Anyway, it's all fixed now, the clutch is safely in a locker somewhere.
__________________

__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 17:47   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,037
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Yes, I had to ease the load or the clutch wouldn't open. If reefing I do ease the mainsheet, we don't use a cunningham and don't have a vang.


Anyway, it's all fixed now, the clutch is safely in a locker somewhere.
It's more than just easing the load. You are transferring all the load to a winch.
__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 18:11   #49
Registered User
 
PaulinOz's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East Coast Australia on board L450
Boat: Lagoon 421(2010) & L450(2013)
Posts: 684
Images: 17
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

"So tell me the benefits of having your sheets on clutches, rather than having a port and a starboard winch for them. (Aside from saving a few hundred dollars.)"

On my boat I must be lucky because I have a port and starboard winch for head sail trimming. (What was Lagoon thinking of) The sheet still goes through a clutch though, this gives me the ability to Jam the sheet temporarily and utilize the winch for other duties.

As to saving money, the clutches are about $165.00 AUD each and my sheet winches somewhere north of $5,000.00 AUD each so being able to use said winch for more than one use by the addition of a clutch, makes a whole lot of monetary and common sense, to me anyway.
__________________
Condomaran owning, Lagoon fan boy who was once called Petal
PaulinOz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 19:25   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,037
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

$5,000 for a winch ? Holy guacamole Batman. I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess at a 40CST. Defender has Lewmar ones for $966. A 46AST costs $1340.
__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 19:38   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,376
Images: 69
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
"So tell me the benefits of having your sheets on clutches, rather than having a port and a starboard winch for them. (Aside from saving a few hundred dollars.)"

On my boat I must be lucky because I have a port and starboard winch for head sail trimming. (What was Lagoon thinking of) The sheet still goes through a clutch though, this gives me the ability to Jam the sheet temporarily and utilize the winch for other duties.

As to saving money, the clutches are about $165.00 AUD each and my sheet winches somewhere north of $5,000.00 AUD each so being able to use said winch for more than one use by the addition of a clutch, makes a whole lot of monetary and common sense, to me anyway.

You seem to be buying your clutches cheap and your winches very dear.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 21:16   #52
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,588
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

A thought as to running sheets through clutches. Given that they're more prone to jamming than most other ways of securing a line, it might be wise to switch to horn cleats or ST winches for securing ones sheets. Particularly headsails. As when the time comes to cast them off in a hurry, having them snag can be in really poor form.

Yes, there are things which can be done to lessen the chances of such stoppages. However I've seen it frequently enough, even with preventative measures, to know that it's not the best setup.
Also keep in mind that the factory builds boats as cheaply as possible, which at times results in less than ideal rigging solutions. As well as plenty of other systems, & details. Since it's the marketing department, not sailors, who have the final say. Sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
$5,000 for a winch ? Holy guacamole Batman. I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess at a 40CST. Defender has Lewmar ones for $966. A 46AST costs $1340.
Yes, on this I have to concur. Especiialy as I can almost always find a pair of self tailing winches in this size for $500-$1,000. Pre-loved, but in perfect condition. And yes, a pair of new clutches runs marginally less, but realistically, most boats could use another pair of winches. Especially as they're kinder to lines, more versatile, & easier to release lines from.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 23:10   #53
Registered User
 
PaulinOz's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East Coast Australia on board L450
Boat: Lagoon 421(2010) & L450(2013)
Posts: 684
Images: 17
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

My Vessel uses Harken Radial 2 Speed Electric ST Size 60 Alum Winch as sheet winches. You need to know what I am talking about, before you try to tell me that I am paying over the odds.

"Yes, on this I have to concur. Especiialy as I can almost always find a pair of self tailing winches in this size for $500-$1,000."

"Holy guacamole Batman. I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess at a 40CST. Defender has Lewmar ones for $966. A 46AST costs $1340."

In reality a quick check says I am under the odds at 5K by a bit.
__________________
Condomaran owning, Lagoon fan boy who was once called Petal
PaulinOz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2016, 23:10   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Liveaboard cruiser. Home port Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 786
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Also keep in mind that the factory builds boats as cheaply as possible, which at times results in less than ideal rigging solutions. As well as plenty of other systems, & details. Since it's the marketing department, not sailors, who have the final say.
You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. An opinion.

My Lagoon is fitted with 3 Harken ST46 two speed electric winches and 2 ST44 two speed manual winches. The battery bank, huge cabling, foot switches, solenoids and installation costs make these anything but the cheapest option. As well, running all lines to a single helm position requires much other deck hardware; turning blocks, standing blocks, etc. as well as the banks of jammers. I'm sure it would have been cheaper to install multiple small manual winches all over the boat.
Perhaps the marketing department knows that SAILORS who buy these boats like to be able to control the boat via all its systems from the helm. It's quite a benefit when skippering a crowded charter boat or when single handing a cruising boat in bad weather. Have you done either?
__________________
tuskie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:03   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,037
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
My Vessel uses Harken Radial 2 Speed Electric ST Size 60 Alum Winch as sheet winches. You need to know what I am talking about, before you try to tell me that I am paying over the odds.

"Yes, on this I have to concur. Especiialy as I can almost always find a pair of self tailing winches in this size for $500-$1,000."

"Holy guacamole Batman. I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess at a 40CST. Defender has Lewmar ones for $966. A 46AST costs $1340."

In reality a quick check says I am under the odds at 5K by a bit.
That becomes difficult when you keep what you are talking about to yourself. I failed mind reading in grade school. Finger painting was my forte.
__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 15:20   #56
Registered User
 
PaulinOz's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East Coast Australia on board L450
Boat: Lagoon 421(2010) & L450(2013)
Posts: 684
Images: 17
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

"That becomes difficult when you keep what you are talking about to yourself. I failed mind reading in grade school."

I apologize, I it seems incorrectly assumed you knew what I was talking about when I posted about cost of my sheet winches in relation to the comment what an extra one would cost.
"Aside from saving a few hundred dollars." (44C)

Savoir I will try to explain as to why I believed, now shown to be incorrect that yourself and 44C would have had any idea of what size, type or brand my winches are.

My reasoning goes like this:

I am posting on a public forum called "The Cruisers Forum" my first clue top left hand corner of the page. Cruising Boats, Cruising People, Cruising Answers.
So I figured, I can safely assume the following, people on here are one or more of the following.

A: Cruisers
B: Interested in Cruising
C: Have a question about Cruising
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about cruising.

That's a very large general Topic so it got split up and we currently come under the heading of "The Fleet". So once again I am justified I believe to imagine that somebody posting here is one or more of the following.

A: A boat owner
B: Interested in becoming a boat owner.
C: Have a question about boats.
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about boats.

The Forum organizers could immediately see a problem with this large category, that perennial problem almost as old as " Guns on boats" or "What is the best anchor" Mono via Multi-hull.

So they separated the fleet discussions into less than 2 hulls or more than 2 hulls.
Thus giving a place to go for people who, by now you may have guessed,

A: Multi-hull owners
B: Interested in becoming a Multi-hull owner.
C: Have a question about Multi-hull.
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about Multi-hull.


This was sufficient until the explosion of Production Multi-hull owners was clogging up the greater than two hulls section of the Forum. I assume the then multi-hull owners at the time did not want so much Brand specific and possibly simplistic questions in their discussion area. This then had said forum organizers coming up with the by now very narrowly focused manufacturer specific sub sections dedicated to: Atares, Fountain Pajot and Lagoon.

That brings us to where we are currently posting "The Lagoon" section of the multi-hull division of the Fleet area on the "The Cruisers Forum".

Now it must have been a brain infarction or something that lead me to believe that any one posting in this section had one or more of the following.
I am positive by now, if you are still with me, even though I do not believe a skill in finger painting would be helping you much, may well see where this is heading.

Rightly or wrongly I believed people posting here in the Lagoon section.

A: Owned a Lagoon
B: Would like to own a Lagoon
C: Had a question about a Lagoon
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about Lagoons.

Now as to why I assumed you would know what my specific winches are,

First clue: My Public Profile apart from telling you who I am, where I am from, what model Lagoons I own and even the names of my two boats.

Second clue in Post #34 I told you I cruise full time on a Lagoon 450.

Now maybe you can see that even though I did not give you the manufacturers part number and an exploded view of my sheet winches in Post #49, I believed rightly or wrongly any person in a discussion on this particular section of "The Cruisers Forum" should and would have some relatively detailed knowledge about Lagoons. Especially as these people seem to be able to pass supposedly well informed but derogatory comments not only about the designers and manufacturers of our chosen boat, but as to the suitability of the running gear layout and design when it appears the best you can bring to the table is possibly a passing grade in Finger painting 101.

Even if you did not still know what model my winches were, once again I believed wrongly as it appears, you would have enough information with the aid of Google to research a subject a little before pronouncing

"Holy guacamole Batman. I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess"

Well I guess you guessed wrong. The other part of the sentence you did manage to get correct (well done) "I don't know".

From another person whom I have also never met, but have been assured by people who have is a very worth while person to sit down with and have a yarn over a drink or two with.

"You seem to be buying your clutches cheap and your winches very dear."

Wrong !!!

While I am on a roll let me mention the Elephant that is not in the room at present, where has our old mate "Factor" got to. Any discussion as to the merits or otherwise of Lagoons for any other purpose than motoring between marinas in flat calm water with a qualified Skipper always seems to bring him out of the woodwork. Is it possible his beloved Seawind's also use the scourge to modern seamanship the clutch. Hopefully he has better weather where he is and is out sailing instead of hunkered down in a bay with little else to do than play on the internet.

I have just been told to leave the Trolls alone and come eat my breakfast, have a good day gentlemen.
__________________
Condomaran owning, Lagoon fan boy who was once called Petal
PaulinOz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 15:53   #57
Registered User
 
PaulinOz's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East Coast Australia on board L450
Boat: Lagoon 421(2010) & L450(2013)
Posts: 684
Images: 17
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Sorry to post straight after my last post but I do need to apologize, because I do not want to come across as someone pushing their own agenda and brand totaly blind to the fact there may be others that swing a different way.

I completely forget and I apologize in my brake down of fleet into less than two and greater than two hulls to mention the Powered section of this forum.
Although I have never been there as I would have nothing particularly intelligent to add I am positive it is a busy section catering to that corner of the cruising market and as such does not deserve to forgotten in such a way. To all the power boat owners out there, it was not an intentional slight just an oversight on my part in the heat of typing.
Sorry
__________________
Condomaran owning, Lagoon fan boy who was once called Petal
PaulinOz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 16:30   #58
Registered User
 
Training Wheels's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 668
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

RE: clutches
I'll show you mine if you show me yours!Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByCruisers Sailing Forum1470526238.496326.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	43.8 KB
ID:	129088
__________________
Training Wheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 16:48   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Boat: Able 50
Posts: 3,037
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
"That becomes difficult when you keep what you are talking about to yourself. I failed mind reading in grade school."

I apologize, I it seems incorrectly assumed you knew what I was talking about when I posted about cost of my sheet winches in relation to the comment what an extra one would cost.
"Aside from saving a few hundred dollars." (44C)

Savoir I will try to explain as to why I believed, now shown to be incorrect that yourself and 44C would have had any idea of what size, type or brand my winches are.

My reasoning goes like this:

I am posting on a public forum called "The Cruisers Forum" my first clue top left hand corner of the page. Cruising Boats, Cruising People, Cruising Answers.
So I figured, I can safely assume the following, people on here are one or more of the following.

A: Cruisers
B: Interested in Cruising
C: Have a question about Cruising
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about cruising.

That's a very large general Topic so it got split up and we currently come under the heading of "The Fleet". So once again I am justified I believe to imagine that somebody posting here is one or more of the following.

A: A boat owner
B: Interested in becoming a boat owner.
C: Have a question about boats.
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about boats.

The Forum organizers could immediately see a problem with this large category, that perennial problem almost as old as " Guns on boats" or "What is the best anchor" Mono via Multi-hull.

So they separated the fleet discussions into less than 2 hulls or more than 2 hulls.
Thus giving a place to go for people who, by now you may have guessed,

A: Multi-hull owners
B: Interested in becoming a Multi-hull owner.
C: Have a question about Multi-hull.
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about Multi-hull.


This was sufficient until the explosion of Production Multi-hull owners was clogging up the greater than two hulls section of the Forum. I assume the then multi-hull owners at the time did not want so much Brand specific and possibly simplistic questions in their discussion area. This then had said forum organizers coming up with the by now very narrowly focused manufacturer specific sub sections dedicated to: Atares, Fountain Pajot and Lagoon.

That brings us to where we are currently posting "The Lagoon" section of the multi-hull division of the Fleet area on the "The Cruisers Forum".

Now it must have been a brain infarction or something that lead me to believe that any one posting in this section had one or more of the following.
I am positive by now, if you are still with me, even though I do not believe a skill in finger painting would be helping you much, may well see where this is heading.

Rightly or wrongly I believed people posting here in the Lagoon section.

A: Owned a Lagoon
B: Would like to own a Lagoon
C: Had a question about a Lagoon
D: Have some intelligent information to pass on about Lagoons.

Now as to why I assumed you would know what my specific winches are,

First clue: My Public Profile apart from telling you who I am, where I am from, what model Lagoons I own and even the names of my two boats.

Second clue in Post #34 I told you I cruise full time on a Lagoon 450.

Now maybe you can see that even though I did not give you the manufacturers part number and an exploded view of my sheet winches in Post #49, I believed rightly or wrongly any person in a discussion on this particular section of "The Cruisers Forum" should and would have some relatively detailed knowledge about Lagoons. Especially as these people seem to be able to pass supposedly well informed but derogatory comments not only about the designers and manufacturers of our chosen boat, but as to the suitability of the running gear layout and design when it appears the best you can bring to the table is possibly a passing grade in Finger painting 101.

Even if you did not still know what model my winches were, once again I believed wrongly as it appears, you would have enough information with the aid of Google to research a subject a little before pronouncing

"Holy guacamole Batman. I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess"

Well I guess you guessed wrong. The other part of the sentence you did manage to get correct (well done) "I don't know".

From another person whom I have also never met, but have been assured by people who have is a very worth while person to sit down with and have a yarn over a drink or two with.

"You seem to be buying your clutches cheap and your winches very dear."

Wrong !!!

While I am on a roll let me mention the Elephant that is not in the room at present, where has our old mate "Factor" got to. Any discussion as to the merits or otherwise of Lagoons for any other purpose than motoring between marinas in flat calm water with a qualified Skipper always seems to bring him out of the woodwork. Is it possible his beloved Seawind's also use the scourge to modern seamanship the clutch. Hopefully he has better weather where he is and is out sailing instead of hunkered down in a bay with little else to do than play on the internet.

I have just been told to leave the Trolls alone and come eat my breakfast, have a good day gentlemen.
As an alternative to writing epistles how about just telling everyone from the outset that you are referring to size 60 electric winches. Saves time.
__________________
savoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 18:19   #60
Registered User
 
PaulinOz's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: East Coast Australia on board L450
Boat: Lagoon 421(2010) & L450(2013)
Posts: 684
Images: 17
Re: Replacement jib sheets?

"As an alternative to writing epistles how about just telling everyone from the outset that you are referring to size 60 electric winches. Saves time."

None of this would have been occurring at all if you and others stopped posting about and pass judgment on things of which you obviously have no direct or even indirect (after a rudimentary internet search) knowledge of.

You instead based on your own best guess. Your words not mine
"I don't know the best size for a Lagoon jib but I'll guess".
Seem more than happy to engage in the conversation purely based on your own best guess. If the internet search thingy is a bit above first grade finger painting (once again your words not mine). Instead of just guessing before posting, a better response to My post #49 for your future reference may well have gone something like the following.

""Hey Paul that sounds awfully expensive for sheet winches, what size are they any way on that L450.""

To which I would have replied with make and model. Then you would not be implying that I can not possibly know what I am talking about, when you can purchase my claimed North of $5K winch for what amounts to be 25% of my claimed cost.

This info was not in my original post because as explained in my epistle like post previously. I assumed, incorrectly that you would have had a fair idea of what was on a specific Lagoon model because as also forementioned we are in a Lagoon specific area of the forum discussing Lagoons.
__________________

__________________
Condomaran owning, Lagoon fan boy who was once called Petal
PaulinOz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
jib, men, sheets

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Attaching Jib Sheets capt lar General Sailing Forum 71 24-04-2013 07:57
Jib Sheets JusDreaming Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 07-08-2010 12:32
How to Cleat Jib Sheets - '72 Marine Clipper? sunnysandy Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 15 08-07-2009 06:54
Jib Sheets DWT Other 12 04-02-2009 03:34
Help with determining the proper length and width and weight of the main, jib sheets Scintillating General Sailing Forum 2 12-06-2008 02:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.