440: Questions about sailing Lagoon 440 upwind

[Low Country Home Builder]

How close upwind can they sail? Is 30-40 degrees accurate?
Thanks

[MylesK1]

Hi LCHB,

I've had them pinched closer than that without luffing or loosing speed. And that's with particularly old canvas!

Fair Winds,
Myles

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Low Country Home Builder

How close upwind can they sail? Is 30-40 degrees accurate?
Thanks

WHAT?

Someone somewhere published something, have a peek:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...boats-p440.gif

Cheers,
b.

[barnakiel]

You guys must be talking what you saw on the apparent wind readout, right?

Then I must stand corrected.

b.

[MylesK1]

It's a great graph, but if it were true she wouldn't have much more range than a square-rigged tall ship.

[MylesK1]

Tell you what--I'm sailing from Norfolk to NYC this week, heading out on Thurs morning...I'll let you know if we can sail closer to the wind than 50 degrees.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by MylesK1

It's a great graph, but if it were true she wouldn't have much more range than a square-rigged tall ship.

;-)

I have sailed them in flat waters with something like 15 knots true wind. There was no way we could tack within 100 degrees. But I bet when it is your boat you learn plenty of tricks and can get her to sail closer.

What does the manufacturer's graph say then?

b.

[MylesK1]

Hi B,

I've never checked out the manufacturer's graph--I'll take a look on Wednesday and see what it says.

When you're that close on the wind to tack we typically bear off, pick up speed and make sure to back-wind the jib through the tack. That would usually be through something under 12 knots of wind.

What's your method?

Fair Winds,
Myles

[barnakiel]

Must admit I do not have a method yet. What you say sounds to me very much like what I do on Hobbies.

'My' Lagoons are always other guy's boats. I am a mono-huller but sure I love cats too. Sailed a a Catana a bit and a Schionning. Both big boats. Catana tacked very well, Schionning did not perform too well. I have not sailed an Outremer yet but friends who did claim they sail very well. (I bet some do but the new ones are way different from Outremers as they used to be.)

I know Lagoons as they seem to be most popular cats with the ARC now and so I often get to fix them, move them or assist owners in various hassles.

The other way I know Lagoons is when I support them wx wise - mostly the ones coming back from Caribbean to Europe, hence my pretty decent idea of how they perform upwind and otherwise.

b

[barnakiel]

I found this. For a 420 it says TWA 50 which is roughly in line with the other picture. Also in line with my tack to tack experiences in the well protected environ of our harbour.

This comment towards the bottom there caught my eye: "Note : I cannot give you the other Lagoon catamarans speed polar diagrams because they are currently being re-validated by the naval architects."

So maybe indeed they will issue new diagrams soon where the TWA will be different.

b.

[MylesK1]

Hi B,

I've got a good bit of experience sailing Lagoons as well as Voyages. The Voyages are unreal! They move. We were making 12 knots in 18 knots down in the BVI on a Voyage 500.

The big differences in (big) cats in my opinion come down to two factors: clearance height (minimizing that slapping sound and wave-height clearance) and hull shape ("V" vs. "U").

Lagoons have a moderate height and you still get the slap--or pounding, depending on the conditions. They also have a "U" shaped hull. As a result, they're known for being more accommodating but lacking speed and pointing.

The Lagoon 440's have a fixed keel along with saildrives and decent-depth rudders, all help them point to the wind better than expected.

Could Forcynthia compete against a Gunboat? No. But I don't have that kind of money.

We were close to buying a Voyage 450 and decided against it because, while she would have been great to sail, we're going to be live aboards and need the headroom. Plus, Voyages have the beds built into the body of the vessel rather than in the hulls--a downside of the "V" shaped hull. The Lagoon 440 has a (rounded) queen size bed in the hull!

So, well you look at what we were going for, it fit our needs--husband, wife and daughter. If you're sailing around the world as a single or a couple, you might look for something different (and even then need to make modifications).

Again--just my opinions.

Fair Winds,
Myles

[barnakiel]

Yep. If I could have two boats the other one would very likely be a multi.

Seen Gunboat last year. Nice but nothing special. What I did fall in love was Rayon Vert - a light-cruising converted class 50 tri. Man she was a beauty. And she was super fast too!

What I love in Lagoons is their vertical windows (and then there is this small amt of overhang roof above them too). This must make a world of difference in the tropics.

b.

[barnakiel]

Looks like we have nearly hijacked the thread ;-). I am off to bed now.

Fair winds,
barnie

[MylesK1]

B,

The vertical windows were a HUGE appeal when we were looking for something to live aboard. They create much more of a "home" feel, but more than that they come along with the headroom throughout the interior of the salon.

If you can afford a Rayon Vert we're in a totally different class. Those tri's are fast! And if I were circumnavigating I'd want one! But again, would you want to live aboard in a tri? Maybe a Neel, but otherwise not really my choice.

Fair Winds,
Myles

[barnakiel]

From peeks stolen while walking the dock and dripping my saliva everywhere, I can say Rayon Vert's interior may be roughly the same volume as my current boat - minimalistic indeed and only good for a solo sailor or a couple that is intimate and do like each other. This is, luckily the case with me and my first mate.

So, yes, RV for the adrenaline and pure joy of riding, but Lagoon for cruising and living aboard.

I was also lucky to see the Neel and perhaps it is the novelty that has not grown on me yet. The boat did not look too well - sort of sketchy and experimental feeling about her. I definitely did not like the deck layout (I saw the boat only from the dock). Maybe inside they are such a marvel that one changes their mind instantaneously.

Bueno. Looks like I am drifting wild again ;-)

b.