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Old 02-11-2011, 12:41   #1
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Purchasing and Commissioning

We have purchased a L450, hull# 130, to be delivered and of March 2012. I am starting this thread to exchange thoughts and experiences with experienced L450 owners, as well as those who are awaiting delivery or are interested in buying one.
I am listing the main items from the options list that we ordered. Any thoughts / experience would be great.

General Specs:
- 4 cabins: to allow us to have more space for friends and family.
- Comfort configuration: mostly of teak in the cockpit, over the cruising version.
- main sail: regular full roach version. I was on a 440 with square top and the top battens never popped over in light wind, even manually swinging the sail. I also fear that the regal horizontal cut dacron sail might not stand up to the extra loads for long.
- Genaker - on order for now, but thinking about potentially getting one made from better material. Does anybody have experience with it?
- No cushions: We will make our own from fabric we like. We will have a Sail Rite sewing machine on board.
- Folding carbon gang plank: Our sales rep highly recommended it. Does anybody have experience with it?
- Electric winches (not for dinghy)
- 54 HP Yanmars with folding props
- No generator: Planning on installing a Norther Lights M673L3 (6kW-60Hz, 5kW-50Hz). Even though we have air conditioning and will have a washer, we feel that the 11kW Onan will most the times be underloaded with the danger of bore glazing. The 5kW Onan on their list runs at 2400 RPM (NL 1500 RPM) for 50Hz. In the Victron generator test the NL generators are quitter than the Onan ones.
- No electric toilets: Dealer advised against them. Thinks if we want electric we should get a different brand. Does anybody have the factory electric ones? What brand are they?
- No watermaker. Will install a Spectra Newport 400. Uses much less power.
- Cruisair air conditioning: Was thinking for a long time to install my own, as on my last boat the heating system was installed always smack in the middle of the bunks, making the rest of the space unusable.
- No plotter, radio: will install my own.
- Dinghy: Yes. Any experience with quality?

Rolf
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Old 02-11-2011, 13:12   #2
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Commissioning at SAS in Les Sables d'Olonne

We will pick up our L450 in France end of March. The outfitting will take place at SAS Les Sables d'Olonne. Does anybody have experience with that?

As we are going to add some of the equipment ourselves or have it installed by contractors. We expect to be there for about 3 weeks.

Main items we want to install or have installed:
- Generator Northern Lights M673L3 (5kW 220V-50Hz)
- Solar panels. Not decide yet which way to go. Options considered:
- 5 Kyocera 135W with MPP charger on davits
- 5 or 6 (depending on space) 100W semi-flaxible (you can step on them)
on the open areas on the cockpit roof.
- Victron inverter/charger Quattro 12V- 5000W - 200A charger.
- Victron 7kW auto transformer
- 2 extra 140 Ah batteries (if we can find convenient space) to increase from 840Ah to 1120Ah. This gives us about 450Ah usable considering using from 90% charge to 50% charge. We don't want to run the generator every day.
- Washing machine. We plan to install a standard washer, such as Bosch WLX 24440. This one has a depth of 440 mm. I assume it will fit.
- Chart plotter. I am hoping the new Raymarine e7 will be followed in time by a 12 inch version.
- AIS transponder -
- VHF - Standard Horizon GX 2150 with AIS receiver (back up if transponder AIS fails)
- SSB ICOM
- WIFI repeater for better reception
- Cell phone repeater

Also as time available:
- Fabricate cushions for cockpit, bath tub (forward lounging area), salon roof for sun lounging.
- Fabricate sides around aft cockpit, as well as weather protection at stairs to fly bridge
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Old 02-11-2011, 22:47   #3
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Confirm what batteries are being installed, I had 4 x 140 aH Tudor wet / vented truck batteries in my new L421 that lasted less than 6 months and have just been replaced with Lifeline agm's. No matter what source for charging you have you need something that will hold that charge to be usable.
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Old 02-11-2011, 23:04   #4
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
Confirm what batteries are being installed, I had 4 x 140 aH Tudor wet / vented truck batteries in my new L421 that lasted less than 6 months and have just been replaced with Lifeline agm's. No matter what source for charging you have you need something that will hold that charge to be usable.
If you add batteries that you intend to parallel to the existing batteries, get ALL batteries from the same manufacturer and the same model. If you can, get them all from the same batch.
Do yourself a favour and read up on how to parallel batteries properly so that they charge/discharge evenly.
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:39   #5
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

PaulinOz
Thanks. I will check if Lagoon is still using the same 140Ah batteries. I will not add to them if they are prone to fail, rather just wait until they do and then upgrade to better ones.
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Old 03-11-2011, 16:26   #6
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

For dingy: Avon. (Several times torture tested, no problem. Could be a bit pricey though..)

Genaker: dacron is more than enough unless you go racing.

Yr plans on electric department seem to me a bit weird..

Inverter: 5 KW seems too high unless you buy all big eaters in 220 V (water maker, laundry, A/C, etc..) On the other hand, yr generator of 5 KW is by far underrated to run yr A/C. Unless, you plan to use on one or two cabin and nothing else, you will need app. 20.000 Btu which in turn will require min. 10 KW power.

So, I would suggest:

-1000 Ah battery bank is OK. 6 X 100 W solar panel is nice if you can afford it.
-water maker running 12 V. (50 lt/hour will eat app. 45 Ah)
-A/C just in master cabin + another cabin 16.000 Btu , yr 5 KW will barely suffice.
If you want a decent A/C in every cabin + saloon, you need minimum 10 or 11 KW. (Consider min 22-23.000 €..)
-if you want to have yr espresso and or yr wife wants to the hair drier availbale all the time (mine does..) w/out having to run the generator each time, then, install a small inverter. (2-2,5 KW)
-unless you live on the boat, convince the admiral to give away the laundry machine. It relies heavyly on two scarce resources on the boat, water and electricity..

Good luck

Yeloya
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Old 03-11-2011, 17:11   #7
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

If you are going to install the same brand electronics, as Lagoon delivers, then by it from them and let them install it.
The shops in Les sables do know what they want , and it is a crappy jobb,
and if you by stuff down there it has to be for more then 1000euros to get it duty free.
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Old 03-11-2011, 20:49   #8
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Weird Electrics

Yelola
Re: Weird electrics:


Thanks for the reply. Here is my reasoning. I hope it is correct.

Generator and Inverter:
My objective is to have a generator as small as possible, as in most cases we will not be using many power hungry gadgets. And just for charging a large generator will never be loaded enough to prevent bore glazing. Also we will save weight. With a 5 kW generator, using a 200A charger in the Victron 5000 will use just under 3kW at full load. There is probably only a short time that the batteries will actually accept this kind of charge current.

The inverter will be a Victron Quattro 5000 W (or maybe 3000 W – still considering). These inverters have two neat features:

1- Power Control - You program a maximum power for shore and generator independently. Once the inverter senses that this power is reached, it will throttle back the charger to not overload the generator or shore supply.

2- Power assist- Once the charger does not charge anymore (Power Control at 100%) AND the power demand is still higher than programmes, it will kick in the inverter and support the generator or shore power, matching the frequency and phase.

Of course, this only makes sense if the high power demand is for a short period of time. But it is very good if you just need the micro wave for a minute.

Together the generator and the Inverter can supply up to 10kW (about 8kW continuous load), but about 15kW short peak load.

Let me know if I made a mistake in my thinking process.

Air Conditioning
The AC units are individual Dometic Cruise Air Turbo 8k BTU. Each unit uses just under 1 kW for cooling. A little more for heating.. There are 5 of these AC units on board. I am not planning to use them all at the same time, unless on shore power. The 5kW generator should be easily able to handle 2 or 3 of the AC units at a time and still have some left over for charging. Any AC motor start-up rush current ( which will be 1 second or less) can be easily supplied by the inverter assist kicking in. Hopefully, the AC units will also be cycling on and off are the initial cool down period, leaving more power for charging.

As long as the AC units are not on when the coffee maker, micro wave, or hair dryer are running, it should be fine. I might have to put in a switch that either AC’s or the ‘others’ can only be used.

Water maker
The Spectra Newport 400 uses 26A at 12V for 67 liters/h. Make that 50 liters or so at higher sea water temperature per hour at 26 A.

Washing machine
Yes – we will be living on the boat for the first 12 months; thereafter 6 months at a time. We also like remote anchorages, so a washer is something we like.
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Old 03-11-2011, 20:50   #9
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Careka:

i guess you have experience then with the shops Les Sables.
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Old 03-11-2011, 21:53   #10
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Hi Rolf,

We have also purchased an L450, our dealer is Apaca in Hyeres, France. I don't know the hull number but delivery will also be end of March, so we will most probably meet at delivery. This is my first boat, so I have limited experience. Lagoon will let me make changes until the 5th of December so I will tag along to your chat to benefit from your and the forum insights.

One thing I realized is that it is cheaper to select the options that Lagoon offers versus hiring a contractor such as Pochon to do the work, as the contractor will charge you separately for the installation. For example I was thinking to install Garmin electronics instead of Raymarine as I had received some negative feeback on Raymarine. I received an estimate from Pochon ( marine electronic contractor in la Rochelle), the cost of electronics ( Radar, VHF, AIS, Plotter) was almost the same as Raymarine, but I would cost 3K Euro extra for installation. So in the end I am sticking to Raymarine and let Lagoon install it.

Genaker: I will order the one from Lagoon. Apaca and a delivery skipper I working with suggested the sail provided by lagoon is fine for cruising. After doing some research I will also buy a Parasailor for downwind. You can find some threads on this forum and on the Yahoo lagoon forum. I highly suggest you to take a look at the Yahoo lagoon forum as well, lots of information on Lagoon catamaran.

Generator: APACA insisted that I get the 11KWA if I plan to use A/C, the 5KWA was too small. I was planning to stick the one provided by Lagoon Onan, but I am looking forward to read what responses you get from the forum regarding your option.

Electric toilets: Apaca did recommend them. I will challenge them again. It would be great if you could provide any feedback why your dealer does not recommend it.

Watermaker: Apaca will install a Dessalator 220 v 100 L/h, they claim it works well, is a simple system with no electronics hence it is easier to fix. It seems that when lagoon installs it you lose one water tank but Apaca have found an alternative installation that lets you keep the water tank.

A/C: I have not made my mind yet, my wife really wants to get it as we have two toddlers and she feels it is necessary to make them sleep inside when is hot and/or they get seasick. I am still doing research to understand if it is a “must” to cruise with kids in the Caribbeans and the pacific islands. Initially I wanted to install instead diesel heater, as we might need it in the Med initially and after our trip. I am not sure the heat from the reversible A/C will be enough taking into account water needs to be +10c to work. Though one thing Apaca told me is that I need to choose one or the other, so I cannot install both. Moreover, they claim it is much easier and cleaner to have lagoon install them as it is done at an early stage of the boat construction.
Solar panels: I am installing 3x135W. I was under the impression you could only fit 3 max on the davits. I will check with Apaca and revert back. I will take a look at the semi-flexible ones.

Gaz Stove: Apaca has proposed me to change the standard 3 gas stove with a custom made solution 4 gas stove. I am waiting for an estimate and some pics I will share them when I get them.
110V-220V: Apaca does not recommend that I set up both 110v and 220v, they claim that they have not found a reliable and safe solution. This summer I spent some time on a Salina, that had both 110v and 220v, Pochon made the installation but they kept having recurrent problems when using 110v. I have done some research on this forum as there are many threads on this topic, but my knowledge in electricity is very limited so I have to rely on what Apace tells me for now. Have you done any work on this issue?



As you can see I am relying a lot on Apaca on my decisions and so far I am very happy with them, but it is always great to be able to contrast opinions.


Regards,


Gonzalo
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Old 03-11-2011, 23:57   #11
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Hi Gonzalo

Great to hear from you. Always good to see the different opinions of the dealers.

Delivery Location:
Hyres is on the south coast. How does your boat get there? I checked with my dealer for the land transport to southern France and it was over 20 000 Euro. Ouch! Or are you also picking yours up in Les Sables?

I am going to the Paris boat show. Will you be there too?

I currently own a Bavaria 40 mono hull and have sailed her over 8000 NM over the last two years on the North American west coast from south Vancouver Island, BC, to Glacier Bay, Alaska.

Raymarine:
I have a Raymarine E120 (not the new wide version) on my current boat and I like it. No problems. I was on a 60’ catamaran crossing the south Pacific earlier this year and they had 3 Garmin 5012’s on board. I like the Raymarine better. I did the chart plotter installation myself on my current boat, as the dealer said what I wanted could not be done. Well, it could and works great.

Generator:
My dealer also wanted to push the 11KW Onan on me. I did a lot of reading, as I do not like the generator to be run at only 10-20% load most of the time, when the high loads only occur less than 5% of the time.
Take a look at this web page

White papers - Victron Energy

and read the PDF’s for
- “Energy Unlimited”
- “Achieving the impossible”
- “Maine generator test 2007”

You will find a lot of arguments for a smaller generator.


Electric toilets:
My dealer says they a ‘not quiet’. We are chartering an L450 in two weeks, and I hope it has electrical toilets, so I can test myself.

Watermaker:
I looked at the energy consumption of the Dessalator and I believe it was more than 4 times as high per liter than the Spectra. Spectra runs at about 5 Wh/L , all others I found run at 15-30 Wh/L. That is 3 to 6 times more energy used.

Diesel Heater
I use my current boat at the west coast of Canada, and winters here are wet and cold. However, I have not used my diesel heater much yet. In the winter we usually go on shorter cruises and then stay in a marina over night. There we just hook up a standard electric heater with fan to the shore power. Much less noise too for better sleep. Dometic says their AC in heat mode works down to 5 degrees Celsius. Our water temperature never goes below 8 degrees here in the far north. The only time I saw 4 degrees water temperature, was when we parked close to a calving glacier So for the few times I need the heat I will live with the AC in reverse mode. If that fails I will put a small electric heater into my cabin for the 2 or 3 really cold nights.

I doubt you will need heat in the Med. A little bit of sun should warm up the boat interior nicely.

Solar:
I find the Lagoon price for the solar very high at $8340. You can find the Kyocera 135W panels at under $500 a piece. A MPPT charger at about $500. A frame for the davits should be not more than $800. For a total of $2800 with 3 panels plus some labor. That is a good saving.

Stove:
What is that 4-burner gas solution?


Multi voltage
The simplest would be to just install a auto adjusting high amp charger (at least 80A) and run a decent size inverter. Would not cover the AC unless you have only one unit running at a time. The chargers automatically adjust to the anything between 100-260V and 45-65Hz. This means you are covered for anything the world uses. Victron (Centaur line) and Mastervolt make them.

A friend of mine just hooks up his 220V-system boat to the split phase 110V US system. Split phase means that you have two lines at 110V each, but 180 degrees shifted. This results in 220V, but at 60 Hz. Most equipment is supposed to run with that. Have to check with Dometic if the AC will handle it.

But it is easiest to install a high amp multi-voltage charger and an inverter.

Throttle control.
What does your dealer recommend for the double throttle control at the nav station?

Cruising:
What are your plans after the delivery?


Rolf
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:53   #12
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Im keeping an eye on this as well as I am picking up my L380 in April and I want to install solar (as much as possible) maybe 600W total, wind gen, and watermaker (maybe
Spectra Ventura 150 or a KATADYN PowerSurvivor 40E. Also im looking at a gennaker from rolly tasker sails. I will be interested to see quotes and selections and contractors used as I will want to spend as little time as possible in les sables. Im sure its a nice place but hopefully a week or 2 there will have things ship shape.
see you guys there for a beer (i'll be sailing home to Australia via the med after delivery) Also I have a list of items I will be looking for in Les Sables to outfit the boat while I am there so It would be interesting to compare lists and suppliers for things like tools/safety gear/liferaft/epirb/flares/radio/sat phone maybe/fire extinguishers/drouge/grab bag gear/first aid/cutlery andcrockery/folding bikes/bbq/clothing/2nd anchor etc etc)(the list goes on....
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:11   #13
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Welcome to this thread monte
It might have been better to apply this topic to all Lagoons picked up in Les Sables by the owners early next year. Should we start a new one and just discuss the L450 specific issues here?

When will you be picking up your 380? Are you planning to go through the Red Sea by Somalia? Or are you just spending some time in the Med until the season arrives to go via Panama?

Should we start a new, more general "Commissioning Lagoons in Les Sables"? What do you guys think?
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:05   #14
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Monte
You have a long list, just like us:

“water maker/solar panels/tools/safety gear/liferaft/epirb/flares/radio/sat phone maybe/fire extinguishers/drouge/grab bag gear/first aid/cutlery and crockery/folding bikes/bbq/clothing/2nd anchor”

I will be shipping a large box from Canada to SAS in Les Sables with a lot of my gear. I have so much stuff I want to take from my current boat. I am in the process of checking the prices.

I am going to the Paris Boat Show in December and hope to source many of the remaining items there. I will also be with my dealer at the Lagoon factory as well as visit SAS in Les Sables in December.

Working down the main items on your list from above

Water maker
Telly is a Spectra guy and very helpful and thorough here on the forum.

Solar panels
I am most likely going to install 4-5 Kyocera 135 (about $350 in the US) on my own frame on the davits with a MPPT charger. Again, I will check the boat show for deals.
I am also considering semi-flexible ones on the roof.

Tools
I will be bringing my own. Most are from my current boat. I also found a set of Makita battery tools here in Canada on special that would have cost twice that in Europe.

Safety gear
We are bringing our personal life jackets, and I assume the boat will come with standard ones for guests that do not bring their own.

Life raft
I hope to source at the boat show

EPIRB
I was trying to get a personal one earlier this year and found that all the local stores here in Canada had only US registered ones in stock. You EPIRB has to be registered to the country you live in. Thus I will be bringing mine form Canada.

Radio VHF
I am planning to install the Standard horizon Matrix AIS+ 2150. I have the 2100 AIS on my current boat and love it. Was dead easy to install and also has fog signals, which we need up here often enough. I still plan to install an AIS transponder, but the radio will be a backup should the transponder fail. We had a bad transponder during the Pacific crossing earlier this year.

Radio SSB
I have an ICOM 802 with tuner and the bits in my basement. I will do a test set up in my house and do testing with it, specifically hooking up to my lap top and with sail mail and getting GRIB files. I still have to do the HAM test. Just went to a talk about the subject and the consultant recommend just to study the questions like mad and then go directly for the test.

Sat Phone
I have not decided yet. Hope to see a good deal at the boat show. Just a phone for slow email, mostly for weather as a back up for SSB and emergency.

Drogue
There are so many conflicting discussions about this that I don’t know what to do. Most likely I will build my own series drogue from the instructions you find on the Internet.

Folding bikes
I will check the size of the lockers in two weeks when we charter an L450 in Martinique. I have two bikes in mind:
Dahon Espresso – full size. If I can fit 2 of them. Doubtful though, but would be nice for exploring further inland, specifically nice whine yards or historical sites in the Med.
Dahon D7 Mariner – small bike with materials that stand up better to the marine environment.
I am also considering installing a BIONX electrical system into them for those hills around the Med.
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Old 04-11-2011, 16:04   #15
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Thanks Rolf,
Im easy if you prefer a new thread,I was planning on putting a non lagoon specific one in the general section for some advise on equipment till I saw this one. I think the general things will apply to all.
As I don't currently own a boat I will need everything and its probably easiest to buy in les sables rather than buy here and bother shipping it. I will just be in Med til I head East later in the year to the Bahamas etc.
I was at the La Rochelle boat show in September. As I had no idea on what I needed I didn't buy anything. Maybe if you know exactly what you need and the price you can make deals, but it didn't seem like the best place for that to me.
Paris is fantastic! probably cold in December tho! but have fun there.
I will be speaking with my dealer from catamarans Barcelona as well regarding supplies and contractors as he has relationships with them in Les Sables.
Also remember there is no need to pay VAT on an export so it will be 20% less expensive and possibly easier to purchase all items together.

solar
I did meet a guy in spain that had just had fitted a similar setup to the factory setup for about half the price in les sables. I will forwards the contractors details. Apparently he is good for all the electricals. I will be asking for a quote from him for anything he can supply and install to keep things simple. I will be doing the same as you, as many as fits comfortably on the davits and some on the roof with MPPT

Tools
I will make a list and source at a local hardware. I have some but would probably be more expensive to ship them than buy them there.

safety gear. liferaft, handheld radios
I will source there in Le Sables, hopefully all from the one chandler to keep things simple. The EPIRB can be bought there and still registered in Australia I think. Im thinking th same with the sat phone as a backup and maybe I wont need a MF/HF radio. I will be just using the VHF that comes standard and buying a backup handheld VHF as well I guess.

Drougue
I think I will buy a series drogue jsut in case...
Bikes
those Dahon Espresso's look good. the boat show will have a lot of folding bikes...thats one thing they did have at La Rochelle, tons of bikes. I did see a neat one at the local supermarket (carefour) for $130 euros, I migth go the budget route unless I see something else in the mean time. They are not a critical Les Sables purchase, but would probably want them pretty soon.
I will forward any suppliers/contractors details in Les Sables as they come to hand over the coming months.
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