450: Purchasing and Commissioning

[MIRELOS]

electronics Garmin, the best- 500 series and HD radar is great
inflatable, Walker bay- way above the rest and made in USA
I have had my foldable bikes for 13 years first in my monohull and now in my new catamaran- BROMTON- still look like new, no rust and very compact

[Kinch]

I made the commissioning of my L450 last July.
The purchase and commissioning experience I'd like to share here is a mixed one, which means a slight disapointment, given all the dreams and emotion one might put in such an acquisition -- not to speak of the cash itself.

Pre-sale service -- very low standard
Basically, the presale service was of very low standard. I have a very good dealer, based in Barcelona, whom I saw struggling with Lagoon to get straight answers. For instance : what's the make and model of the generator, of the watermaker ? etc At some point, I got an awswer that suggested that the specs where not provided to the final customer because they could change until the day previous to delivery. This I when I seriously considered a cancelation of my order, 10% and all ... Not only was this part very frustrating, but as well time consuming, as Lagoon would never accept to be in the same email as a 'final customer'. Having spent a lot of time in a cie who worshipped any directr contact it could have with their final clients, that was really a total mystery to me.

This is when I decided to visit Lagoon's factory. At first, they wouldn't accept, despite the information I had that they did it quite regularly. I did threaten to canceal my order to get the opportunity for this visit. The main purpose was for me to better understand what would be provisionned in my future boat, as I was so much lacking confidence in the info that was provided to me through emails. Again a dreadfull customer experience, but finaly Lagoon proposed a visit date.
I was greetted by Olivier d'Enquin (he's th guy doing most of the deliveries, so some of you might know him). Well, I can only say, that Olivier d'Enquin was able, in a couple hours' visit to turn around the very low image I had of Lagoon at this stage : thorough, competent, attentive, straighforward ... all the contrary to what I had felt over the 2 previous month of email communication.
And this visit was as well extremely usefull to understand the processesand quality standards, both quite convincing to me. I was astonished to realize they would build one of these babies within a week !

Delivery at les Sables d'Olonne - Globally a good experience
M. d'Enquin is there to test all that can be tested, and speed-explain to the new owner the different systems. It all goes to fast, of course, but then there is a very well documented brick of paper which comes along the boat. For me, the main issue was that the door wouln't lock. They brought someone from the factory who did a quick fix, which stood for 24h. It is only 2 month later that I could have this fixed by my dealer in Barcelona ...

Good shipshandler I worked with in Les Sables d'Olonne
This boat is my first one. So there was quite a large amount of equipment to provide. I worked very well over the web with 'Sablaise Nautique', which stands right in from of Lagoon's delivery dock. I prepared my purchase list, asked for their best quotation (a nice 10% discount was standard), and everything was delivered timely on board. Delphine (sablaise.nautique@wanadoo.fr) was my contact there.

I bought 99% of what's aboard over the internet, having everything delivered directly to the cie Lagoon uses for the last pieces of provisionning (SAS), and tracking the orders online. Within 2 days, the boat was 95% equipped and ready to set sail. The last 5% was the fishing equipments, which I thought I would purchase in Les Sables d'Olonne, but I was desapointed to realize there were no convincing supplier near the marina.

All in all a positive experience, as I am so happy with the boat and the choices I made until now. My mixed feelings about the Lagoon customer relationship could drive me to consider an alternative yard in the future, but it is likely that these small initial frustration will long be forgotten by then.

[roetter]

Thank you Kinch for your great information.
Your experience is pretty much the same that we had so far as well. We are still 1.5 months off from getting our boat.

It is so unfortunate that it has to be this way. In my opinion it would not take much to create a much better customer experience. You are right, the production of the Lagoons is very efficient. My dealer had organized a visit during the Paris Boat Show. I am a production engineer, and must compliment Lagoon for developing and tuning a production process that allows them to build a decent quality boat, in Europe, at a good price. It is important that there are affordable alternatives to the high-priced custom boats.

[impi]

Hi Kinch,

We had SHOCKING treatment from Lagoon when we purchased our L440 ... they obviously are not serious about keeping customers and the sad thing is that this attitude pretty much goes all the way to the top ...

We had the same issue ... eventually flew from South Africa to France as we were told by them the boat was in the water. In fact, the boat was not in the water and was still at the factory ... they lied to us a number of times about a number of things.

Eventually we forced them to allow us to see our boat at the factory and I almost ended our agreement with them ... Ana was in tears and our dream had become a nightmare!

The factory manager (I think a guy called 'Louic') was very helpful once he had got the "OK" to let us in ...

Whilst we waited for an answer, Ana, my son and I (who had flown all the way from South Africa sat on the floor in reception as there were NO chairs for us. Staff walked in and out and it it was not before a few hours had passed that someone asked us if we wanted a chair.

I was furious and demanded the boat be launched ahead of others in the que since we had already been told the boat was in the water ... they reluctantly obliged and we met Olivier at the dock. He was a nice guy and very helpful ... tried really hard to restore our faith in Lagoon but it was obvious his 'hands were tied'.

There is a seriously 'rude fella' dealing with warranty issues there ... the rudest person I have ever had to deal with ... Lagoon walked away from all warranty claims which we took up ourselves. We nearly sued them and our lawyers advised we had a strong case, but we decided that the very reason for purchasing a boat was to get away from lifes pressures and cruise the world ... a court case would make everyone unhappy and stressed ...

Our experience is this .... when buying a Lagoon ... forget about the word 'Warranty' ... it does not exist once they have your money!

Also ... be VERY careful on delivery to get ALL your paperwork including a FULL CE CERTIFICATE - including electrical CE certification and definately INSIST on accurate wiring diagrams. We 'upgraded' the thickness of certain wiring to our Raymarine system as the wiring was too thin to cope with the loads ... problem solved!

We hit 'walls' with our dealers ... eventually asked Ancasta in UK to 'adopt us' ... they did ... UNBELIEVABLE service from a lady called Kirsty ... seems Ancasta have 'clout' with Lagoon due to the number of boats that go through them.

Now let me tell you about a REALLY FANTASTIC BOAT .... despite all this arrogance and lack of care ... we LOVE our Lagoon L440 ... we seriously are happy with our choice of boat ... did Cape Town to Brazil in 21 days ... Had her sailing at 21 Knots... fully loaded, including washer/dryer machine, dive compressors, Water maker, full diesel (incl. spare cans of diesel) and water etc. etc.

So many sailors who visit us on our boat comment on the amount of space we have and how practicle the boat is for everyday life on board !

We intend to upgrade our boat every 4th or 5th year ... we really want to buy another Lagoon but do not want to support a bunch of arrogant people without honour and who do not care for their customers.

To this end, we are flying to the boat show in Miami to look at other options ...

A word of advice: These guys will 'kill your dreams' if you expect them to 'do the right thing' ... Take your boat and sort out any issues yourself ... forget the builders even exist and ENJOY your time on the water ... the boat will be an absolute JOY to cruise with and you will be happier for it!

[impi]

Gonzalo[/QUOTE]

Hi Gonzalo - I tried to private mail you but it does not seem you recieved it ...

I posted the pictures on my Blog site http//cat-impi.blogspot.com

They are under 'Boat Specification' page at the bottom.

Cheers

Brent

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Kinch

Lagoon would never accept to be in the same email as a 'final customer'.

..and we will add our confirmation of the same experience, including those noted (and very well expressed) by impi.

For us the jury is still out on some major warranty issues on our L440, including electrical faults, gear failure, improper installations and a leak into the walls behind the starboard aft/master berth that only appears on starboard tacks in heavy seas. It appears that Lagoon believe they can hide behind warranty terms giving them unfettered ability to decide when/whether they will consider any warranty claim; that belief is seriously misplaced vis-a-vis courts attitudes toward those sorts of clauses. Brokers too are exposed by encouraging buyers to expect warranty support. In any event it seems incredible from a simple business perspective that Lagoon seem so prepared to disregard their customers post-sale.

We bought our L440 through Ancasta and we are now waiting to hear further from them, hoping they will (per impi) "adopt us" and help us through the warranty issues. We too are advised by lawyers to press litigation, but we are hoping Ancasta will somehow (!?) save everyone that angst.

In the meantime, we also share impi's view that we are "seriously happy with our choice of boat". Our L440 log now shows >15000nm, including our delivery voyage from the Med to OZ via the Panama Canal, all in great comfort (apart from the warranty issues just noted) and safety. Our top speed was 21kn coming across the top of NZ on the delivery voyage (altho we also topped 19kn crossing Bass Strait last week!) BUT our spec/preference was always (and still is) comfort over speed...and CatNirvana is a superbly comfortable vessel.

[roetter]

Kinch

You have had you L450 for about 8 months now. The L440 owners seem to be reaching pretty high speeds with their boats. I have not seen any speed reports from L450 owner. The last ARC did not have any L450s in it, so I can not judge what to expect.

Kinch, can you report on the speeds and in what winds and angles you reach those?

Rolf

[Kinch]

I sailed her from Les Sables d'Olonne to Barcelona from mid July to mid august.

Speed upwind -- We experienced 35kn front wind in the Gascogne Gulf, with a sea I usually don't like to deal with: short and crossed waves.
For a first handling, it could have been a stressfull experience ...
It was, but only to some extense. The boat would behave in a very stable and reasuring way. The steering position on the flybridge gave a very secure impression (I wonder if sometime this impression should not be a danger in fact). At night, it was quite impressive to see the boat plunge into a wave, slow for a few seconds, and then accelerate again like a much light boat she is definitly not, with lots of power and reactivity (we had 2 reefs in the main at the time).
In these conditions, with no optimisation of any sort, as that was our 2nd day aboard, we averaged 11-12Kns.
Needless to say we were happy to reach the North coast of Spain ; but not at all exhausted, as I confirm the boat is incredibly confortable.

Speed downwind -- Around the Finisterre cape, we experienced 37-42 Kns at about 120°, with the according sea. The boat had a maximum speed of 13-15 Kns, and we were never stressed in any way. In fact, we all recall a very good meal this particular evening: Duck magret pommes sarladaises and a fantastic 'Côte-Rotie', all in a confort one wouldn't dream of on a monohull (my previous experiences).

Genneker speed -- I used the Lagoon Gennaker many time, but ether there were to much wind, or too little (welcome in the Med !), and altough I believe it is an obligatory piece of equipment, I didn't break any record with it. Speed would usually range in the 7-10 kns.

Spinaker speed -- Though a nice 190sqm spi from Elvstrom would help in the Med ... but never found the right mix of wind and crew to really test it. I'll guess it's on my spring navigation program :-)

Engine speed, unfortunatly usefull in the Med can be anything beetween 7-9 Kns. I usually go on two engines at about 2000rmp, and that gives 7-8 Kns. I think a good way to go for long passages on engine power would be on one engine only, with a regular swich.

[Kinch]

When you think about it, it's quite surprising how Lagoon can manage to get that many customer with what looks like a very bad customer relationship ...
Regarding waranty, I have had little issues. Nothing serious, apart the reefs #1 and #2 which broke after only 15 days at sea.
This I was really unhappy with, as is was a major security issue.
It turns out someone in the factory decided it was better to go for friction Antal piece instead of classic blocks (as mentionned in the boat manual).
For all thes issues, small or more serious, I experienced a fantastic threatment from my dealer in Barcelona (Catamarans Barcelona). They would 1rst solve, than start a discussions. As far as I know, they killed all the issues under the warranty, and in fact I can only say I'm happy with the 'after delivery' experience.
But I have no contact at all with Lagoon, and I don't plan any ... untill my 'upgrade' if any, this boat being so perfect to my eyes :-)

Question : I'd like to put a diving compressor (the smaller Bauer would be great). I'm currently trying to fegure out the best location. Were did you put yours ? What make/model is it ?

[D&D]

Originally Posted by roetter

The L440 owners seem to be reaching pretty high speeds with their boats.

We should perhaps add, as regards our own 'speed' experiences, that (i) our top speeds were associated with surfing, rather than pure sailing, and (ii) we would NOT recommend the weather situations that produced those speeds!

Kinch, your experiences sound great. Enjoy!

[MIRELOS]

Maybe it's a French thing, I purchased an FP Eleuthera and visited the factory twice before taking possession in La Rochelle. I was treated quite well at FP and set sail across the Atlantic. Loved the sailing characteristic of the boat even in rough weather, and the comfort of the interior. There were some problems from the commissioning, leaky hatches, one refrigerator not working, a sail track (jib) with missing set screws and horrible running rigging. All warranty issues of not a large expense. It has now been seven months and I'm still waiting, dealing with the factory on warranty issues has been hell.
Once they got their money I was no longer a customer. Too bad, I really like the boat. Multihull Solutions in Australia picked up the ball when they read one of my inquiries on the internet and tried to help me through e-mails to the factory, my thanks to Patrick at MS, that's one dealer who is handling business correctly. You buy an expensive car you get treated like a king, it should be the same when you buy an expensive boat.

[dirkdig]

Love my Lagoon 440, hard to fault it apart from the expected ongoing maintenance.
The manufacturer can not give a damn about thier customers which is a shame because we are all traveling billboards for the company.
You spend a lot of money and get treated as a pest.

[Kinch]

I think what I would have loved to get, before the D-delivery date, is a more detailled preview of the most complex equipments on board. Anything that would help to get ready with the relevant questions while you have the guy with all the answers.
If I was in charge of cutomer relation, I'd play it way more 'web 2.0', by getting all the docs public, and by publicly sharing tips & tricks to improve both the product and the customer satisfaction. From my standpoint, a brand that imagine avoiding customer resentment, just by cutting its communication lines, is just really hidding its head in the sand.
We know that's not exactly Lagoon's views, at least in this thread - bear in mind that for 10 customers sharing their experiences, there will be 10 disatisfied for every satisfied one.
Anyway ...
I have tried to collect most manuals and docs attached to my Lagoon 450 systems. I have attached to this msg the list of these docs. It includes the Lagoon 450 owner's manual, both in french and in english.
I don't think there is any 'doc sharing' around here, but I'd be happy to built one somewhere (Dropbox for instance) and invite anyone who'd like to access these.

[dirkdig]

Before i bought i was told i could have the required structural doc's and design plans for survey,then one i had the boat i could not have what i needed as it was "propriety" and confidential intelectual property.
Be very careful when buying,make sure you get what you are promised before payment.
I mean its not like i am about to start mass producing catamarans,if i was why would i have just bought one.
On top of this the techincal now how is not new.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by Kinch

.....

Anyway ...
I have tried to collect most manuals and docs attached to my Lagoon 450 systems. I have attached to this msg the list of these docs. It includes the Lagoon 450 owner's manual, both in french and in english.
I don't think there is any 'doc sharing' around here, but I'd be happy to built one somewhere (Dropbox for instance) and invite anyone who'd like to access these.

I have started doing the same thing. I have been collecting all manuals on my laptop and iPad. would be great to be able to upload and share.

During my planning and purchasing phase I have also been downloading all manuals and brochures of all equipment I am considering. It will take a while now to clean out all the stuff that has been eliminated from my list.

Another thing I am doing is downloading Youtube videos, for example about splicing or operating the solar charger I am getting.

Regrading the Web2.0 suggestion - Lagoon, the commissioning places and the dealers would create a much better environment for us, and cut down on their own work, if they would provide documents and web sites with information about the whole process from buying through delivery and after sales care. That would only be web 1.0. Now you have to add feedback opportunities and information sharing for everyone.

I am sure glad we have the Cruisers Forum and a critical mass here to have our own section.

I sure hope that what we do here will have an effect on Lagoon and other manufacturers. I would like all of us to have a better experience the next time around. I am sure many of us are already dreaming about the next boat.