450: Purchasing and Commissioning

[roetter]

Originally Posted by gonzemoi

Hi Rolf,

I will take delivery at les Sables as well, estimated on the 30th March. So most probably we will meet there.

They were asking about 10K more to truck it to the Med, but bear in mind we are already paying 10k for the delivery to Sables plus Mise a l'eau...
I will most probably be in Paris on the 7th and 8th Dec. What dates are you going?

I have much less limited sailing experience than you, I have chartered cats for the last 8 years in Balearic Islands and I have only done one single significant crossing Newfoundland-Greenland, which was not easy and very cold.....


My dealer made a custom 4-burner gas solution to replace the existing one which is quite small. As soon as I receive photos and estimate from my dealer i will share, i assume the work is done by a contractor in Rochelle or Sables

Have you found a contractor in Sables/Rochelle to install the solar panels for that price??

As of January I am on a sabbatical to spend time with my kids and travel. The plans are to sail for the next 2-3 years. After delivery I am sailing back to Mallorca in the Balearic Islands, where we are based now. Then at the end of June we will sail the med until October.. The plan is to cross the Atlantic in Dec and spend the season in the Caribbeans, then we will decide.. What about you??

Let me get back to you on the other questions.

Gonzalo

Hi Gonzalo

I expect we will be in Les Sables from about 20 March to middle of April. So we will meet.

Paris:
I am arriving 7th in the after noon. Next day we are driving out to the Lagoon factory and SAS in Les Sables . I will be back in Paris evening of the 8th and stay until the 11th.

Newfoundland to Greenland. Wow - every mile counts at least triple.

Solar:
I have not looked for a contractor for the solar yet. I will do that when I visit in December. I will only have the frame made. Everything else I will do myself.

Cruising Plan:
Your plan is similar to ours. We will hang out in the Med for the summer, then join the ARC from Gran Canaria to St. Lucia. Travel the Caribbean. We will go back by land from Florida to Canada for the summer (hurricane season) 2013 and return to cruising in November 2013. After that - who knows?

Maybe we can travel part of it together.

Rolf

[D&D]

Greetings all

This thread started around new vessels about to be picked up and that process, but it seems now to be on spec choices and others experiences with choices already made...so we thought we could now 'chirp' in a bit...

Starting with batteries, we're definitely expriencing 'issues' with our 6 X 140ah factory-optioned-up gel battery bank. We're not sure whether it was the previous owner -- We bought CatNirvana 9mos old -- or inherently bad batteries, but it seems we may need to replace the lot. We're holding off the replacement until our solar panel (1 x Sunpower E20, due to be released in 2012) is installed...and we're confident thereafter all will be fine as we're managing OK now, albeit using the genset (4Kv) a bit more than we'd prefer.

Square-top main? Brilliant...and no hassles whatsoever. We sailed CatNirvana from the Med to Syd (~14000nm) and have been doing coastal cruising here. I say again for the sceptics...NO HASSLES WHATSOEVER! The only time we need to climb up the lower mast steps is to grab and then secure the main halyard to the boom, to stop it flapping and snapping. The (factory setup) release for the top batten works fine, every time, and there's great light-air performance. We tend to sail a lot single-reefed, perhaps because the square-top results in too much sail area fairly quickly as the breeze stiffens, but when it's really light the square-top is much appreciated...NO DIESELS!

Our experience also suggests the rest of the sail plan is (with respect to yeloya) not at all "problematic". The single-line reefs are easy, with perhaps the exception of the third reef requiring a trip to the mast. We fly the (factory-supplied) screecher in 60-120degree AWA and up to 20kn TWS and it reliably adds >1kn in any condition, more so if the sea state is relatively flat. Above 120degrees the main covers the screecher too much for it to be effective.

Downwind is a personal preference thing. We too note the factory prohibition on the genoa with no main, but agree that's probably intended for heavier weather. We tend to keep some main (unless it's pushing Force 9) up, reefed as appropriate, with a preventer on the boom, and then using the beam to brace a wing-on-wing genoa if it's really square (>160 degrees) from astern.

Sail value surprised us a bit. We thought the factory Incidence sails would be exhausteded by the time we reached OZ, but to our surprise they held up very well indeed...and two well-regarded sailmakers here commented to the same effect. We did some mainsail repairs (to UV strip, wear patches and strengthening the batten points on the luff) and there's a bit of a 'bag' around the window in the genoa, but there still seems to be plenty of sail life there, for our cruising purposes anyway.

We also will echo impi's warranty experience. Incredibly, Lagoon seem determined to not fulfill their warranty obligations. Our vessel was purchased under warranty, but we ended up doing the warranty work ourselves and we are now facing-off with Lagoon for compensation.

[capcook]

Hi all,

The L450 is on my short list. Was wondering why no seems to modify the head layout. I hate it when the floor gets wet around the head. I was planning to get them to split the head and shower into 2 compartments on the 4 cabin configuration. Thus ending up with 2 heads and 2 larger showers. How many heads does one really need for 4cabins? I was going to also install top of the line electric elongated heads. If I lose power I would have a bucket backup plan. Do you think they would do that for me? Wonder what they would charge for such a customization? Do you think it would make the boat unsalable?

Thanks for any thoughts.

[gonzemoi]

Originally Posted by capcook

Hi all,

The L450 is on my short list. Was wondering why no seems to modify the head layout. I hate it when the floor gets wet around the head. I was planning to get them to split the head and shower into 2 compartments on the 4 cabin configuration. Thus ending up with 2 heads and 2 larger showers. How many heads does one really need for 4cabins? I was going to also install top of the line electric elongated heads. If I lose power I would have a bucket backup plan. Do you think they would do that for me? Wonder what they would charge for such a customization? Do you think it would make the boat unsalable?

Thanks for any thoughts.

As far as I know lagoon are not be willing to make any changes besides the proposed factory options. They are very stubborn about it!!

[gonzemoi]

Originally Posted by roetter

Gonzalo

What kind of price are you getting on you Duo and will it be installed in Les Sables?

Rolf

My dealer is installing the Duo 100 for the same price as the lagoon offer, so I assume they must have a discount from them. They told me they do the installation themselves in Sables, but I am trying to get more details.

[gonzemoi]

Hi Rolf, can you PM your email, I am not yet allowed to send PM on the forum as i am not a trusted member..

[D&D]

Originally Posted by capcook

I hate it when the floor gets wet around the head.

Sure agree with you there capcook, but we assume you're simply not inclined to consider the 3-cabin version? Assuming the 3-cabin 450 is similar to the L440 -- We were aboard a L450 briefly and we think it is the same, or at least very similar --there is a seperate (and very nice, actually) shower compartment in the master suite...and there's no water on the floor under the head after a shower!

It's all a matter of priorities, eh?

As for re-sale, you probably shouldn't concern yourself too much. There will always be a solid market for a well-known -- We understand the L450 is already into hull numbers ~120 -- production vessel. Any modifications shouldn't (as long as they don't attract structural remarks from a surveyor) effect your resale value...and almost certainly less so than the state of the market for used vessels generally.

[careka]

Originally Posted by roetter

Hi All.

My experience is in racing with symmetrical spinnakers, and an asymmetrical one on my current mono hull on a Rollgen furler.
I had it initially in a sock, but just sailing with my wife in the fluky winds in our area made us no use it often. Just too much hassle and too unsafe to have one of us on the foredeck with
Parasailor
I read in blogs of people going trans ocean carrying their Parasailor in 30 knots true wind on catamarans. That seems a lot. My questions:
1. Is that really true?
2. Are those Parasailors carried in this high true winds maybe quite small for the boat?
3. Does a catamaran (does not roll under sail forces) reduce or prevent the oscillation of the spinnaker and not pose a problem going really deep even with a regular symmetrical even in strong winds?

The opinion that I have gathered so far but I am still trying to verify:
A Parasailor gives you similar speed as a regular spinnaker and is more 'gentle' in its behaviour.

Rolf

I read in blogs of people going trans ocean carrying their Parasailor in 30 knots true wind on catamarans. That seems a lot. My questions:
1. Is that really true? YES it is, the parasailor is made off same stuff/fabrics, as a parashoot is made of. it takes a lot more force then a normal spinnakker.

go for it, send a mail to "Lino cat" and ask him. you can use it from 90d- to 90 deg easy. but in storng winds stay beween 150- 180 -150
and for me i like the sock a lot more then the roller, due to the bigger it gets the sock is better.
When we had our mono with 105m2 genakker, it was in a sock and i easy sailed it alone, with genakker.
or ask the guys on Parasailor Facebook page. they will tell you .

My genakker on the 380 is used from 60d down to 150d.

[capcook]

Originally Posted by D&D

We were aboard a L450 briefly and we think it is the same, or at least very similar --there is a seperate (and very nice, actually) shower compartment in the master suite...and there's no water on the floor under the head after a shower!

Thanks D&D and Gonzemol... Yes it is a matter of priorities... I can just see the eyes of the old salts on the forum rolling when I rasie the concern of the sole being wet under the head after a shower I know it seems trival, BUT it is a PITA... This was the situation on the Orana I chartered.... I will note the 450 config in this respect next time I board one... We were thinking 4 cabins to have room for guests (in addtion to our 2 kids)... but have not quite decided yet... I really like the 3 cabin verson and one can always convert the saloon into a berth... so we will see..

Sounds like I might need to just buy a used one and make the head conversion myself... I was afraid Lagoon would not consider such a customization ... I pretty sure they are something of an assembly line mfg...

Cheers

[downunder]

Originally Posted by careka

I read in blogs of people going trans ocean carrying their Parasailor in 30 knots true wind on catamarans. That seems a lot. My questions:
1. Is that really true? YES it is, the parasailor is made off same stuff/fabrics, as a parashoot is made of. it takes a lot more force then a normal spinnakker.

go for it, send a mail to "Lino cat" and ask him. you can use it from 90d- to 90 deg easy. but in storng winds stay beween 150- 180 -150
and for me i like the sock a lot more then the roller, due to the bigger it gets the sock is better.
When we had our mono with 105m2 genakker, it was in a sock and i easy sailed it alone, with genakker.
or ask the guys on Parasailor Facebook page. they will tell you .

My genakker on the 380 is used from 60d down to 150d.

How durable are the Parasailors?? I have heard they are not but can't be sure that is credible.

[careka]

i will not be trying to run it in 30 knots, but the fabrics does not break down i 30 knots, its very strong.
------
well ask the once that use them, i havent gotten to that point yett, but i did talk to them at the Hamburg sailshow, and they are down on the ARC start also,
but i have heard that the first once they made where not that good,but the quality is top now, (and i hope so)
When it is made out of same stuf/fabricks that a guy jumping from an airplane, and depends on it to hold jump afther jump, it has to be strong.
freed fall from a person in 200km/h and the shot opens up, hat is a lot of force,

I just know many sailors that has used it crossing the atlantic, and said it the best sail they had, monos and multis

So do Jimmy Cornell say.

[roetter]

Hi all

We are in St. Lucia - Rodney Bay - now. Crossed from Le Marin Martinique yesterday in up to 25 Kts true wind just behind the beam and about 2-3 m swell. A strong wind (probably up to 35 or 40 Kts) had gone through during the night until 9 am. So the waves were still up at noon.

Our L450 is from April 2011 and looks pretty worn already. Well, she is in charter and who knows what kind of people used her. But a lot of the stainless has rust on it. Some of the taps coverings in the bathrooms are corroded.

Shower:
The floor at the toilet does not get wet under the folding plexiglass in my experience from my shower that I took yesterday. The doors seem to be working well.

Cockpit in rain very wet:
With some wind and rain pretty much the whole cockpit gets wet. The opening to go up the bridge deck stairs let a lot in, but also it runs down the side of the cockpit deck an splashes badly inboard. I will have to come up with a solution.
Bimini:
I confirmed I will not get the factory option. Not wide enough, and just like on the test cruise, I keep hitting my head. It should be easy to have one fabricated the goes the complete width of the fly bridge. This would also keep some rain put from the cockpit stairs and keep it dryer there.

Front Salon windows wet:
The roof overhang at the front side of the salon cuts back after the maximum protrusion at about 45 degrees downward. Rain running down will stay attached to the surface and make a great waterfall inside of the open windows. If nothing else I would attach a small bead of silicone just in on the underside to make the water drip off there.

Fly bridge:
We have two not-so-much sailing ladies on board and even with the seas pretty high yet nobody go even feeling bad a little bit. The view was great. Even had to dip down for a sleeping sperm whale that we passed within 10 m. We all one it. I had to go down to electrical panel in the salon to solve a battery charging problem and started feeling the motion sickness come on within a few minutes. Up there I was fine again in no time. Everybody loves the fly bridge. We have been up there 100% of the crossing and even at night to enjoy the view in the dark and have a drink.
Rolf

[Dakota450]

Yuk! I don't like the sound of some of your observations. Corrosion? Rust? These charter companies really don't take very good care of the boats but is Lagoon just using cheap materials? The cockpit area getting wet is a real concern. I was on a 440 when a tropical storm was passing through and the back cockpit stayed relatively dry. Maybe that stairway up and the general design of the cover was a mistake. I kept hitting my head on the 440 bimini also. Please keep posting and be very critical in your observations. I am looking at owning one in the future and really want to hear about any shortcomings.

[DavefromNZ]

I have attached pictures of the bigger bimini we are getting. Not provided by Lagoon but my dealer seemed to find someone in France to provide it

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Dakota450

Maybe that stairway up and the general design of the cover was a mistake.

We shared much the same thought(s). Our L440 saw A LOT of water over the top in the voyage from the Med to Sydney -- In fact we only yesterday discovered that there was some water ingress into the flybridge chartplotter due to a tiny flaw/gap in the chartcard door on the face of the unit...and massess of water washing over and around it! -- but the cockpit underneath was always dry.

As for corrosion, we certainly didn't see that, including on the bathroom taps where we've seen it often on other vessels. Whether the new L450 is using lesser materials, we couldn't say. With a bit of polishing effort (!) the stainless all around comes up very nicely indeed.