450: Purchasing and Commissioning

[downunder]

Originally Posted by roetter

Hi DavefromNZ



To my biggest and happy surprise, my wife, who always said "You bring the boat across the ocean, and I fly there." has now decided to join us for the Atlantic crossing next year. Surprise, surprise.

Rolf

One of the big pluses if not the most important reason for a cat.

I did hear some comment that the parasailors after a Alantic crossing in the WCR many needed repairs. Are they too lightly built for a long term cruising sail?????

[DavefromNZ]

Hi Rolf,

Our Lagoon 450 is expected to be shipped from France early Dec so hopefully in Auckland mid Jan. I don't know the hull number.

We are in a 'Fractional Ownership' with 3 other parties. I think that will work OK for NZ coastal cruising. We have an online booking system and great usage agreement that is as flexible as it can be so that any unused days can be used by the others.

I have a 7 month old daughter, hence the move to a nice big stable platform, however I think it will be great for cruising with a lot of mates. Also I think generally faster than the Bavaria and obviously way more comfortable.

Cheers
Dave

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by roetter

Hi All.

Thanks for all the great input already. I am still considering my downwind sails.

My current most favourite option is this combination:
- Gennaker (105 sqm) - rally more for beam and higher, but maybe to be used over night on down wind reaching as safer than spinnaker.
- plus
- Symmetrical spinnaker (190sqm). Really big, should give good push in light air.
- possible later also a smaller (about 120 sqm) heavier fabric high wind spinnaker, also for night sailing.

I only recently I started looking at the ParaSailor, as I have never seen one in real life.

My experience is in racing with symmetrical spinnakers, and an asymmetrical one on my current mono hull on a Rollgen furler.
I had it initially in a sock, but just sailing with my wife in the fluky winds in our area made us no use it often. Just too much hassle and too unsafe to have one of us on the foredeck with the wind coming up unexpectedly. With the furler I just do it all by myself from the cockpit. It was my most used sail going to Alaska. Great!

There are just two things that I am still concerned about with this setup - on my mono hull.
1. At about 20 knots true going deep to about 160 apparent (without a main) you have to start taking it down. Too much force in the rig and the mono is pushing a big wave.
2. If you go even deeper to reduce the apparent wind, the spinnaker starts oscillation with the mono rolling hard from side to side.

Parasailor
I read in blogs of people going trans ocean carrying their Parasailor in 30 knots true wind on catamarans. That seems a lot. My questions:
1. Is that really true?
2. Are those Parasailors carried in this high true winds maybe quite small for the boat?
3. Does a catamaran (does not roll under sail forces) reduce or prevent the oscillation of the spinnaker and not pose a problem going really deep even with a regular symmetrical even in strong winds?

The opinion that I have gathered so far but I am still trying to verify:
A Parasailor gives you similar speed as a regular spinnaker and is more 'gentle' in its behaviour.

Rolf

Hi Rolf,

I did a lot of study and trial for down wind sailing on my Orana.The final decisison was:
-have twin genoa rigged on the forestay (my forestay is suitable for that and I'll have one spare genoa..) if the AWA is greater than 165 degrees. I've tried it and it worked perfect; w/out main 8+ kts SOG in 15-16 true. This combination will be used for long passage in tade winds.
-an assymetrical (in socket) cut with large roach (a runner) which again worked perfect anhywhere between AWA 80- 170 degees. More or less the same speed again w/out the main. Mine can be rigged from the retractable bow sprit or diagonally from any bow on the pulleys that I've installed.

We have one customer who is using a parasailor on his Salina 48 cat and he's happy. He's saying parasailor goes down at 20 kts true and never hoisted if they are less than 3 on board.

My conclusion is not to use the main for down wind sailing. The extre speed that bings is lagely offset by the chafing of the main, more strain on autopilote and the risk of accidental gybing.

All this is valid until 20-22 kts of true. If I have more wind, I can saikl to any direction with my standard rigging quite fast and comfortably.

Comparing sail prices is very tough if not impossible due to various material used in the process as well as the cost of manpower.

Yeloya

[monte]

Im considering a spectra watermaker as well, but probably the smaller 150 model (either that or the KATADYN PowerSurvivor 40E) I will let you know who I find for pricing and installation in Les Sables.
also, Ive hear good reviews for rolly tasker sails from thailand and spoke to satisfied customers. I had rollys sails on my first arafura cadet cat when I was 12 so Im pretty happy to buy from them as well.
Rolly Tasker Sails, International Sailmakers, Cruising Sails, Racing Sails, Mast and Rigging, Sailing Accessories

[roetter]

Hi Yeloya

Thanks of the detailed info on your downwind experience. I usually fly my asymmetrical without the main too. Works well.

Lagoon says not to fly a foresail without the main, up. I assume though that this is meant for heavy weather high on the wind. The mast pumping hard in the wave would probably cause fatigue. If anybody knows something else about this, let us know.

I have read about a mono going up wind here in rough weather with only a foresail and the mast broke. I have watched the has on my Bavaria pump forward in the middle section quite a bit in heavy weather in sync with the waves, and that was with the main up.

I guess I can only answer the Parasailor question if I get a chance to try one on another boat.

Re 3 people:
This always depends on the type people. I know many people that don't even purchase a spinnaker because they are afraid of it. I love them. There is no nicer sailing and the colours just add to the experience.

Rolf

[gonzemoi]

Hi Rolf,

I will take delivery at les Sables as well, estimated on the 30th March. So most probably we will meet there.

They were asking about 10K more to truck it to the Med, but bear in mind we are already paying 10k for the delivery to Sables plus Mise a l'eau...
I will most probably be in Paris on the 7th and 8th Dec. What dates are you going?

I have much less limited sailing experience than you, I have chartered cats for the last 8 years in Balearic Islands and I have only done one single significant crossing Newfoundland-Greenland, which was not easy and very cold.....


My dealer made a custom 4-burner gas solution to replace the existing one which is quite small. As soon as I receive photos and estimate from my dealer i will share, i assume the work is done by a contractor in Rochelle or Sables

Have you found a contractor in Sables/Rochelle to install the solar panels for that price??

As of January I am on a sabbatical to spend time with my kids and travel. The plans are to sail for the next 2-3 years. After delivery I am sailing back to Mallorca in the Balearic Islands, where we are based now. Then at the end of June we will sail the med until October.. The plan is to cross the Atlantic in Dec and spend the season in the Caribbeans, then we will decide.. What about you??

Let me get back to you on the other questions.

Gonzalo

Originally Posted by roetter

Hi Gonzalo

Great to hear from you. Always good to see the different opinions of the dealers.

Delivery Location:
Hyres is on the south coast. How does your boat get there? I checked with my dealer for the land transport to southern France and it was over 20 000 Euro. Ouch! Or are you also picking yours up in Les Sables?

I am going to the Paris boat show. Will you be there too?

I currently own a Bavaria 40 mono hull and have sailed her over 8000 NM over the last two years on the North American west coast from south Vancouver Island, BC, to Glacier Bay, Alaska.

Raymarine:
I have a Raymarine E120 (not the new wide version) on my current boat and I like it. No problems. I was on a 60’ catamaran crossing the south Pacific earlier this year and they had 3 Garmin 5012’s on board. I like the Raymarine better. I did the chart plotter installation myself on my current boat, as the dealer said what I wanted could not be done. Well, it could and works great.

Generator:
My dealer also wanted to push the 11KW Onan on me. I did a lot of reading, as I do not like the generator to be run at only 10-20% load most of the time, when the high loads only occur less than 5% of the time.
Take a look at this web page

White papers - Victron Energy

and read the PDF’s for
- “Energy Unlimited”
- “Achieving the impossible”
- “Maine generator test 2007”
You will find a lot of arguments for a smaller generator.


Electric toilets:
My dealer says they a ‘not quiet’. We are chartering an L450 in two weeks, and I hope it has electrical toilets, so I can test myself.

Watermaker:
I looked at the energy consumption of the Dessalator and I believe it was more than 4 times as high per liter than the Spectra. Spectra runs at about 5 Wh/L , all others I found run at 15-30 Wh/L. That is 3 to 6 times more energy used.

Diesel Heater
I use my current boat at the west coast of Canada, and winters here are wet and cold. However, I have not used my diesel heater much yet. In the winter we usually go on shorter cruises and then stay in a marina over night. There we just hook up a standard electric heater with fan to the shore power. Much less noise too for better sleep. Dometic says their AC in heat mode works down to 5 degrees Celsius. Our water temperature never goes below 8 degrees here in the far north. The only time I saw 4 degrees water temperature, was when we parked close to a calving glacier So for the few times I need the heat I will live with the AC in reverse mode. If that fails I will put a small electric heater into my cabin for the 2 or 3 really cold nights.

I doubt you will need heat in the Med. A little bit of sun should warm up the boat interior nicely.

Solar:
I find the Lagoon price for the solar very high at $8340. You can find the Kyocera 135W panels at under $500 a piece. A MPPT charger at about $500. A frame for the davits should be not more than $800. For a total of $2800 with 3 panels plus some labor. That is a good saving.

Stove:
What is that 4-burner gas solution?


Multi voltage
The simplest would be to just install a auto adjusting high amp charger (at least 80A) and run a decent size inverter. Would not cover the AC unless you have only one unit running at a time. The chargers automatically adjust to the anything between 100-260V and 45-65Hz. This means you are covered for anything the world uses. Victron (Centaur line) and Mastervolt make them.

A friend of mine just hooks up his 220V-system boat to the split phase 110V US system. Split phase means that you have two lines at 110V each, but 180 degrees shifted. This results in 220V, but at 60 Hz. Most equipment is supposed to run with that. Have to check with Dometic if the AC will handle it.

But it is easiest to install a high amp multi-voltage charger and an inverter.

Throttle control.
What does your dealer recommend for the double throttle control at the nav station?

Cruising:
What are your plans after the delivery?


Rolf

[gonzemoi]

Hi Monte,

Could you provide me the contact detail for the contractor in Spain for solar panels.

Thanks,

Gonzalo

[monte]

Oh I met him in Spain but he had them fitted on commissioning in Les Sables. I will be checking the contractor with my broker when I speak with him next. Who did you purchase your Lagoon with Gonzemoi?

[gonzemoi]

Originally Posted by roetter

Hi Chechako
------------
With a gen set and all your 120v appliances, I would just go with a 120v watermaker.
------------------
And why would I do that?

I figure I can run the 12V water maker anytime I want and do not have to start the genet to make water. This would mean that my solar gives me enough to not have to start the genset. I could also get away with the genet running maybe for 30 minutes pushing 150A into the batteries and run the water maker for two hours pulling 26A.

Rolf,

The dessalator DUO lets you use both D.C. and A.C.: this is from their website:

The DUO is the first bi-powered watermaker system world-wide.It functions at the turn of a switch on D.C. (12 or 24V) and on A.C. (120, 230 or 400V), as the DUO is an intelligent patented system.

Thanks to this system, the motors operate independently from each other, with neither electric clutch activation nor manual manipulation of the pulleys.
The advantage of the DUO is its "2 in 1" aspect, as if there were two water makers available with the facility to function optimally and logically.
For example: When there is no wind and the engine is running, D.C. power (at 12 or 24V) is available and should be used (DUO 60: 370W, DUO 100: 600W).
At anchor, when the power generator is running the watermaker can be operated on the A.C. supply (230V).
Its slow consumption (DUO 60: 3A, DUO 100: 5A) allows keeping the whole charger power for recharging the batteries and other uses (for instance: hot-water tank).

I am not sure if i am doing the right calculation but when using the dessalator in DC, so 600w per hour for 100 L/h, it gives a 6W h/l versus the 4.55 that Spectra 400 does. Is this calculation correct??
In this is correct the consumption difference is not that significant, and having the option to use both DC and AC seems great.

[gonzemoi]

Originally Posted by monte

Oh I met him in Spain but he had them fitted on commissioning in Les Sables. I will be checking the contractor with my broker when I speak with him next. Who did you purchase your Lagoon with Gonzemoi?

Hi Monte,

I purchased it with Apaca in Hyeres, in France (med). I am curious to know the final cost to have them installed in Les sables vs having lagoon install them. Based on Rolf previous comments it seems that there is large mark-up between the cost of goods and final price at Lagoon..

Any feedback will always be welcome...

Gonzalo

[roetter]

Hi Gonzemoi

Thanks for drawing my attention to the Duo water maker. That is one of the problems with the Lagoon options sheet. They do not specify exactly what item will be installed. My dealer has not been helpful in clarifying these for me, so often I just have to guess.

If you are sure that it is the Duo 100 that will be installed, then I might reconsider and go for it. Did you see that it consumes 600W at 12V but 1100W at 220V?
I saw that in the price list. Does that also mean that it produces less freshwater when running on 12 V?

What is the slow consumption mode? It uses 5A (60W) for the Duo 100. How much water does it produce in this mode?

Rolf

[monte]

Originally Posted by gonzemoi

Hi Monte,

I purchased it with Apaca in Hyeres, in France (med). I am curious to know the final cost to have them installed in Les sables vs having lagoon install them. Based on Rolf previous comments it seems that there is large mark-up between the cost of goods and final price at Lagoon..

Any feedback will always be welcome...

Gonzalo

Gonzemoi, he mentioned it was around $2500 euro
Im not sure if it had exactly the same configuration but Rolfs figures seem in line with that price. Id rather lagoon fit any extras but at that price I consider it a substantial saving.
Monte.

[roetter]

I am flying to Martinique today to charter an L450 for two weeks. I report about it when I am back.

Rolf

[gonzemoi]

Rolf,

I got the power consumption details from dessalator DUO 100 specs sheet:

http://www.dessalator.fr/uploads/tx_.../SS_DUO100.pdf

My dealer will install it instead of lagoon, they also told me they can install without sacrificing a water tank. My dealer proposed me to upgrade to the DUO. I think lagoon does not offer you the option to install the DUO, you might need to do it with a contractor.

I am not sure about the water production at 12V, I would assume it is the same. I will call them tomorrow and figure it out.

Gonzalo

[roetter]

Gonzalo

What kind of price are you getting on you Duo and will it be installed in Les Sables?

Rolf