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Old 04-11-2011, 16:11   #16
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

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Careka:

i guess you have experience then with the shops Les Sables.
Yes. we got our boat in may this year, and they where very buissssy. and hard to get to change/adjust tings.
But i also have a frend that had an OVNI taken out from Les sables, and he payed around 1000euros for mounting the electronicks he wanted in his boat.
---
i was wanting Simrad my self, but found that the ekstra hassel ekstra days, (that i did not have) so i went for all raymarine from factory.

But it is your call,
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Old 04-11-2011, 16:38   #17
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

I did get mine with a Genakker from factory, it is nice, but from sailing it home i found it best to use under tacking in very lite Winds, and not so much in down winds,
So i got a Parasailor for the downwind sailing, it just came to me today,
105 m2.
-------
There is duty free stoff to get , but then you need someone to do the paperwork and it will cost you 100euros, so then you need to get smallstuff for more then 1000euros before it pays off,

Eriks is a nice shop just up from the pontons (20meters to the left as you go out the gate.) where you get the boat, tell them that i got very good deal there. and the prices was good in Les sables compered to all the places i did go into on my way back up to Norway.
and they had a english speaking in there, and that helps a lot, i dont speak French.

if you are sailing south then Gibraltar is a cheap place to fill up with goodies.
Guernsy/jersy if you go north.
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Old 04-11-2011, 18:30   #18
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Thanks Monte

I assume you mean heading WEST to the Bahamas. Going to the Bahamas is not the best way though. The weather patterns usually makes you head much further south. Arrival around St. Lucia is common. Also the weather window for the window starts in November. You should be out of the Caribbean by June as the hurricane season starts then. We are joining the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers (ARC2012) next leaving Las Palmas next year 30 November. We are already signed up, as it fills quickly. This year’s ARC is just getting started. The first boats have signed in in Las Palmas today. See Welcome to World Cruising Club: ARC
We plan to leave the Med beginning of November. Until then the whole Med is ours.
Solar
Yes please send the details

EPIRB
Strange – here in Canada, after all, they only had US registered EPIRBs. So they did not let me buy them. We get a lot of US boaters up here in Canada.

Folding bikes at Carrefour
The 130 Euro bikes would be a good bike to start with and keep for the occasional guests.
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Old 04-11-2011, 21:04   #19
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

yes I meant west ! sorry I didnt have my gps turned on!
and yeah I meant the Caribbean really, arriving in St Lucia or there abouts.
possibly finding safe harbour for the hurricane season so as not to be too rushed in the voyage.
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Old 04-11-2011, 22:00   #20
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Re: Weird Electrics

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Yelola
Re: Weird electrics:

Thanks for the reply. Here is my reasoning. I hope it is correct.

Generator and Inverter:
My objective is to have a generator as small as possible, as in most cases we will not be using many power hungry gadgets. And just for charging a large generator will never be loaded enough to prevent bore glazing. Also we will save weight. With a 5 kW generator, using a 200A charger in the Victron 5000 will use just under 3kW at full load. There is probably only a short time that the batteries will actually accept this kind of charge current.

The inverter will be a Victron Quattro 5000 W (or maybe 3000 W – still considering). These inverters have two neat features:

1- Power Control - You program a maximum power for shore and generator independently. Once the inverter senses that this power is reached, it will throttle back the charger to not overload the generator or shore supply.

2- Power assist- Once the charger does not charge anymore (Power Control at 100%) AND the power demand is still higher than programmes, it will kick in the inverter and support the generator or shore power, matching the frequency and phase.

Of course, this only makes sense if the high power demand is for a short period of time. But it is very good if you just need the micro wave for a minute.

Together the generator and the Inverter can supply up to 10kW (about 8kW continuous load), but about 15kW short peak load.

Let me know if I made a mistake in my thinking process.

Air Conditioning
The AC units are individual Dometic Cruise Air Turbo 8k BTU. Each unit uses just under 1 kW for cooling. A little more for heating.. There are 5 of these AC units on board. I am not planning to use them all at the same time, unless on shore power. The 5kW generator should be easily able to handle 2 or 3 of the AC units at a time and still have some left over for charging. Any AC motor start-up rush current ( which will be 1 second or less) can be easily supplied by the inverter assist kicking in. Hopefully, the AC units will also be cycling on and off are the initial cool down period, leaving more power for charging.

As long as the AC units are not on when the coffee maker, micro wave, or hair dryer are running, it should be fine. I might have to put in a switch that either AC’s or the ‘others’ can only be used.

Water maker
The Spectra Newport 400 uses 26A at 12V for 67 liters/h. Make that 50 liters or so at higher sea water temperature per hour at 26 A.

Washing machine
Yes – we will be living on the boat for the first 12 months; thereafter 6 months at a time. We also like remote anchorages, so a washer is something we like.
I like your thinking on using a smaller genset with the Vitron Quattro with power assist. Whilst a small gen set I can't see that it cannot handle your situation if you manage your A/c and other loads and be much more economical and efficient. Certainly 11KW genset is overkill and 8 would be OK. The key to your proposal is the Vitron and the links attached. I think with a genset a a/c watermaker is a good way to load the genset when charging batteries rather than a DC one.

I am looking to a similar sized 46 ft vessel (FF46 Picture Gallery - FreeFlow 46 Construction)
and my peak loads will be starting loads for SCUBA compressor and depending on compressor size looking at 5-8kw northern Lights genset. Compressor manf suggests 8kw but I am not sure if they understand that the Vitron Pover Assist will cover the starting loads so are playing it safe.
Still researching.

Only way 11kw is justifyied is if using all A/c units a hell of a lot. It is a simple way for manuf to ensure the A/C loads are covered at startup but very inefficent. They are looking at cheap and simple not efficient.
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Old 04-11-2011, 23:16   #21
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Hi Downunder

Nice, sexy boat the FF46.

Did you read any of the Victron white papers? They go into great detail on this kind of thinking - covering the sometimes peaks with the inverter assist.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:31   #22
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
PaulinOz
Thanks. I will check if Lagoon is still using the same 140Ah batteries. I will not add to them if they are prone to fail, rather just wait until they do and then upgrade to better ones.
The El works in our 380 is good, and the batteries are OK. it is more up to the charger, that has to be sett up rigth,, and since you are going for the best "Victron", make sure they sett it up rigth. , bulk ab,float. also get the Victron 602S battmeter to have full control on what is used, and left in the bank.
---------
We also got the dinghy(310) from factory with a 10hp Honda 4 stroke.
Dinghy is very nice and cost a lot more then the others, but has better quality.
They are no being deliverd with Alu bottum in stead of glassfiber, i wish i had one of these. they will take even more abuse to the bottum then a glassfiber can do.
So get the Carib w/alu bottum.
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Old 05-11-2011, 20:58   #23
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

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Hi Downunder

Nice, sexy boat the FF46.

Did you read any of the Victron white papers? They go into great detail on this kind of thinking - covering the sometimes peaks with the inverter assist.
Hi roetter,

Have read the Vitron papers and several threads on subject at Cruisers forum and that why I am looking at going the way of as small a Northern Lights genset as I can with a Quattro depending on size SCUBA compressor I go with. If I fit aircon I don't need all boat at once similar to your situation.

The first FF46 will be in water in next week or so but rig will be fitted just soon after Christmas. Waiting to see how she performs however I think she will set the cat amongst the Pidgion's. I know when I was aboard a Lagoon and FP's recently at Airlie Beach boat show I hit my head a couple of times and it just doesn't happen on this vessel.
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:32   #24
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Square Top Main

Who has experience with the square top main? I am still going back and forth on this topic.

Is it worth it?

My thinking is that I would get it if I could upgrade to a try-radial cut main with high end (Hydranet) fabric. I am wondering if the regular Dacron horizontal cut one that comes from Lagoon will hold up to the loads of there square top main for long.

I contacted Incidences - the sail maker for the Lagoon 450 - about an upgrade, but they would only give me a 2000 Euro credit to trade in my brand new 10000 Euro Dacron main. Better to keep it then, but what do I do with two mains?

Any thoughts?
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:53   #25
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Go for the Flathead main, i have it and the standard sails are not that bad.
you do get cheaper sails made in the US then in europa, so you can upgrade back home if it is needed.
The Flathead gives you the ekstra you want when its not blowing so much.
on the 380 the flathead gives about 5% more speed.

Geir ove
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:45   #26
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Re: Square Top Main

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Who has experience with the square top main? I am still going back and forth on this topic.

Is it worth it?

My thinking is that I would get it if I could upgrade to a try-radial cut main with high end (Hydranet) fabric. I am wondering if the regular Dacron horizontal cut one that comes from Lagoon will hold up to the loads of there square top main for long.

I contacted Incidences - the sail maker for the Lagoon 450 - about an upgrade, but they would only give me a 2000 Euro credit to trade in my brand new 10000 Euro Dacron main. Better to keep it then, but what do I do with two mains?

Any thoughts?
Generally speaking, 450 has already a problematic sail plan because of the extremely high boom to give space to a flying bridge. To solve this problems, 450 has some features like single line reefing to helm station. Nevertheless, the fllathead is adding complication to every main sail, probably a bit more to the one on 450. (The new generation of FP's also are coming with flathead and you need to take a shackle one meter above the boom to hoist or when folding the main. This is tough but doeable.)
On 450 as you can not climb 3 meters above the deck, there is a mechanism to do this but it's tripping 2 times out of 3..
I would definately stay out. You may lose some performance in light airs but I'd doubted that this will be 5 %.. Instead, a light air genneaker and or a spinneaker is a must on this boat and will give you much more than you would lose on flathead.

Dacron is just fine, even in harsh conditions it would last min 4-5 years. Hydranet costs roughly 4.000 € more and I don't think it's worth.
Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 06-11-2011, 14:21   #27
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We bought a new 440 - best advice I can give you ....... Don't sign the contract without specifying what you understand the word 'warranty' to mean!
Once they have sold you the boat and you mention the word warranty, you will see faces drawing a huge BLANK. Also, make sure to specify decent and very accurate wiring diagrams to be supplied in your contract and make sure to get the EU certification.
We were treated in such a rude manner by the factory that we eventually decided to do any warranty repairs at out own expense ...... It certainly cost us as we did it with only the best craftsman, and despite the cost we justified it by saying that at least we didn't have to deal with rude, obnoxious people !
Boat is really sweet now.
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Old 06-11-2011, 14:22   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roetter
We have purchased a L450, hull# 130, to be delivered and of March 2012. I am starting this thread to exchange thoughts and experiences with experienced L450 owners, as well as those who are awaiting delivery or are interested in buying one.
I am listing the main items from the options list that we ordered. Any thoughts / experience would be great.

General Specs:
- 4 cabins: to allow us to have more space for friends and family.
- Comfort configuration: mostly of teak in the cockpit, over the cruising version.
- main sail: regular full roach version. I was on a 440 with square top and the top battens never popped over in light wind, even manually swinging the sail. I also fear that the regal horizontal cut dacron sail might not stand up to the extra loads for long.
- Genaker - on order for now, but thinking about potentially getting one made from better material. Does anybody have experience with it?
- No cushions: We will make our own from fabric we like. We will have a Sail Rite sewing machine on board.
- Folding carbon gang plank: Our sales rep highly recommended it. Does anybody have experience with it?
- Electric winches (not for dinghy)
- 54 HP Yanmars with folding props
- No generator: Planning on installing a Norther Lights M673L3 (6kW-60Hz, 5kW-50Hz). Even though we have air conditioning and will have a washer, we feel that the 11kW Onan will most the times be underloaded with the danger of bore glazing. The 5kW Onan on their list runs at 2400 RPM (NL 1500 RPM) for 50Hz. In the Victron generator test the NL generators are quitter than the Onan ones.
- No electric toilets: Dealer advised against them. Thinks if we want electric we should get a different brand. Does anybody have the factory electric ones? What brand are they?
- No watermaker. Will install a Spectra Newport 400. Uses much less power.
- Cruisair air conditioning: Was thinking for a long time to install my own, as on my last boat the heating system was installed always smack in the middle of the bunks, making the rest of the space unusable.
- No plotter, radio: will install my own.
- Dinghy: Yes. Any experience with quality?

Rolf
We bought a new 440 - best advice I can give you ....... Don't sign the contract without specifying what you understand the word 'warranty' to mean!
Once they have sold you the boat and you mention the word warranty, you will see faces drawing a huge BLANK. Also, make sure to specify decent and very accurate wiring diagrams to be supplied in your contract and make sure to get the EU certification.
We were treated in such a rude manner by the factory that we eventually decided to do any warranty repairs at out own expense ...... It certainly cost us as we did it with only the best craftsman, and despite the cost we justified it by saying that at least we didn't have to deal with rude, obnoxious people !
Boat is really sweet now.
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Old 06-11-2011, 15:44   #29
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Re: Purchasing and Commissioning

Hi impi
Sorry to read about your problems with Lagoon. It is too late for us as we signed with our Canadian dealer about 3 months ago. We had similar problems with our current boat, a Bavaria. I also ended up doing a lot of work, but did it myself. I guess it has mostly to do with the dealer.
At this point I can only close my eyes and hope for the best.
At least you are enjoying your boat now.
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Old 06-11-2011, 16:00   #30
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Square Top Main

Hi Yeloya
I don't see why having a single line reefing is something that deals with a bad design. Many boats have single line reefing, and if they are set up well, then they go to the cockpit (i.e helm station) to keep you or your crew in a safe place.

All designs are compromises and for me the advantages of fly bridge are worth the higher CE of the main sail, which by the way gets the bottom of the main into better winds too.

It is not the Dacron in itself that gives my he head aches, as the horizontal cut. With the horizontal cut the fibers in the fabric are not running in the direction of the highest loads. Thus the fabric is easily overloaded and stretches out of shape. On a tri-radial cut at least they orient the strong direction of the fabric pretty much along the stress lines.
Rolf

On my current boat I replaced the horizontal cut main and the genoa within 9 months, as I could not stand the look of the badly shaped sails anymore. I just love aerodynamics too much to look at bad looking airfoils.
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