450: Purchasing and Commissioning

[monte]

panels look great. Everything going ok in Les Sables?

[jebi]

Originally Posted by roetter

We chose to install them attached to the cockpit roof...

Congrats on the design, roetter. It looks great!
How is the larger bimini going?

[DavefromNZ]

Toilet Non Return Valves Fail?

We have four electric toilets, which I think are very good. We have four holding tanks. The Non Return Valves (NRV) all allow leak back into the toilet bowl. Sometimes in a matter of minutes sometimes the next day even when flushed several times with fresh water.

Nasty smelly problem and ridiculous on a new yacht. Anyone else experienced this? The valves are easy to access and so I expect to replace but for what?

Thanks
Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DavefromNZ

Toilet Non Return Valves Fail?

We have four electric toilets, which I think are very good. We have four holding tanks. The Non Return Valves (NRV) all allow leak back into the toilet bowl. Sometimes in a matter of minutes sometimes the next day even when flushed several times with fresh water.

Nasty smelly problem and ridiculous on a new yacht. Anyone else experienced this? The valves are easy to access and so I expect to replace but for what?

Thanks
Dave

Check they are installed right way up. Some need gravity to work correctly.

Dave

[Lagoon4us]

We have same problem portside toilet area reeks! I've removed the fibreglass cover in the shower and re-tightened all hose clamps, they were loose however i put that down to shrinkage of the pipe over 4yrs etc.
Ill investigate the valve situation as i'm running out of ideas.

[D&D]

Ah yes...b----y marine heads...

We recently found both our 'guest' (portside) heads blocked. We then found many sympathetic shaking heads, happy to watch from a distance as we searched for a solution. Eventually, after a half-day almost literally bathed in s---, both heads were restored to full operation.

All of our heads are Jabsco electric flush heads with what are described in the manual -- see attached pic -- as "joker" valves; these valves appear designed to stop inappropriate matter, e.g. tampons etc, from flowing into the pipes. Given their function, perhaps they were meant to be called 'choker' valves...or else, as it was for us on that fateful day, the valves that can end up saying 'The joke's on you'! Anyway, they may also be exactly the valves DavefromNZ describes as non-return valves.

After much searching, we found that both of our blockages resulted from the combination of the joker valves and not flushing the toilets for long enough. If the toilet is not continuously flushed until the matter is all the way into the holding tanks, as soon as the flush pressure stops the matter will flow with gravity. Gravity will then often take the matter back up against the joker valve from the other side, eventually causing the joker valve to be blocked...and so it was for both of our blockages.

So our important observation (and Rule #1 for guests on board) is...BE SURE TO FLUSH FOR LONG ENOUGH TO RUN THE MATTER ALL THE WAY INTO THE HOLDING TANKS. From some heads, there is quite a length of tubing between the head and the tank.

Not flushing for long enough may (?) also be the cause of matter returning to the toilet, as described by DavefromNZ.

As for the smell, if it's a 'rotten egg' smell, it is very likely nothing to do with what flows out of the head...and rather to do with calcification around the inside of the INtake tubing. So if it's a rotten egg smell, try just replacing the intake tubes...and that should be rid of it!

[YADO]

On a Moorings 40 catamaran we had a problem with back flow after flushing. No amount of pumping would prevent it from happening.
After a few days I radioed the Moorings base for help and a guy showed up with a hammer.
He pounded on the pipes running from the head to the holding tank, and I mean he really whacked on them.
Why? He said it broke lose the mineral (calcified) build up in the pipe. The head worked fine after that.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by YADO

On a Moorings 40 catamaran we had a problem with back flow after flushing. No amount of pumping would prevent it from happening.
After a few days I radioed the Moorings base for help and a guy showed up with a hammer.
He pounded on the pipes running from the head to the holding tank, and I mean he really whacked on them.
Why? He said it broke lose the mineral (calcified) build up in the pipe. The head worked fine after that.

...interesting...and we say again...b----y marine heads!

[dirkdig]

The biggest stink in our jabsco electric toilets was when we have left the boat for a month or so and then the organisims in the water in the pipes and bowl have died and rotted i guess.
After several flushes it gets better.
What we do now when leaving it we flush through fresh water having the pipes and bowl left with fresh in it not salt water.
The stink is now not an issue and the sitting fresh water does not calcify as much

[D&D]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

we flush through fresh water having the pipes and bowl left with fresh

How do you manage that Peter? Do you disconnect the intake hose at the seacock and then put it in a bucket of fresh water and flush?

[DavefromNZ]

Hi D&D,

No need to do that. Most of the electric toilets will have a just drain push button. I pull the shower head over to the bowl and fill and drain it a couple of times. I always do that when leaving the yacht each time and so there should only be fresh water left in the pipes.

Dave

[dirkdig]

Just pull out the shower handle and fill it up that way.nice and easy and the stink is mostly taken care of.
Just like Dave does it.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by DavefromNZ

Hi D&D,

No need to do that. Most of the electric toilets will have a just drain push button. I pull the shower head over to the bowl and fill and drain it a couple of times. I always do that when leaving the yacht each time and so there should only be fresh water left in the pipes.

Dave

Thanks Dave...indeed, but then we're back to the problem I mentioned above (#171) of the calcification in the intake hose...and the rotten egg smell 'blooms' with the first flush. Still, like Pete (dirkdig) we also find "after several flushes it gets better"...

[dougdaniel]

Thanks a lot for the great information.

I am torn between a used 440 with the bugs worked out but the inevitable wear and tear vs. a new 450. This rain shedding problem tells me that Lagoon certainly has some problems to fix on the 450s.

Do you (or anyone) know if there are similar problems with the 440s? As I understand it, they have different hard bimini designs.

Originally Posted by roetter

The cockpit of the L450 gets really wet from three sides. This is the weakest part of the L450 we tested over the last to weeks in the Windward Islands. The reasons are:
1. The openings for the stairs going up to the fly bridge let a lot of rain into the cockpit sitting area.
2. The roof sides are close to the seats. The water runs down from the roof and clings to the underside of the roof which is sloping forward. From there it runs along the slope towards the stairs to the fly bridge. On the way there many drops don't make it and fall off. Thus you have a curtain of water hitting the flat deck next to the seat backs. The resulting splashes make it far inside the cockpit.
3. The aft of the roof top ends right over the seat back of the aft table seats and the head rest of the lounge, so they are directly in the water falling off the deck.

The only place that stays dry is the seat next to the door from the salon.
Going inside does not make sense when in the tropics as there is not enough air flow as you have to close the front windows in the salon as well as the water runs down the forward deck right through them into the salon. It is unbearably hot inside. So we ended up standing in the middle of the cockpit when under anchor until the shower stopped. Then we quickly went to the fly bridge under the bimini to enjoy the breeze.

Lagoon should have put more thought into the design details of the cockpit roof (hard bimini) to avoid some of these problems. A rail along the side of the deck should have been implemented to lead the water to one spot on each side next to the stairs. There a pipe should lead it to the deck level from where it can run off without splashing inside the cockpit.

What can be done?
The openings to the flybridge stairs can be dealt with by putting up the factory fabric covers, but it is a pain to do so when you have showers going through and in between them you want to go onto the fly bridge.
Putting up the window side covers is not an option in hot climates as it gets way too hot with the cooling breeze locked out.

To keep the aft seats dry I plan to install the solar panels over the aft of the cockpit roof. I will then add a piece of fabric between the roof and the solar panels to prevent the rain from going through that opening. All the water will be lead to the aft side corners of the roof now. See extra post on the solar panels in this threat.

The sides get more difficult. I will experiment with a plastic edge running from the aft of the cockpit deck edge sloping forward to the fly bridge stairs. There I will have to catch the water and lead it off the deck. If nothing else the splashing will be located in one spot on each side at the stairs and keep the rest of the seats dry.

Are there any existing L450 owners that have dealt with this problem? Let us know your solutions.

[DavefromNZ]

Our 450 came with the full set of drop down cockpit clears and covers for the fly bridge accesses. Excellent at keeping out the rain and easy to roll up. However would also stop the airflow. We also can easily change with the zip on sun shades but not tried yet.

I love the 450. Cockpit and saloon layout is great.