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Old 31-03-2016, 00:24   #61
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

So just for the fun of it I tracked down PHRF rating range for some of the more popular large cats. For more see http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...0Handicaps.pdf

Lagoon 42 (2008) .... 165
Lagoon 38 .............. 156
Lagoon 420 ............ 129
Shuttleworth 42 ....... 48
Crowther 44 ........... -12
Newick Native 38 .... -3
White Explorer 44 ... -42

Personally performance is important to me, and if I were in the market would be a serious consideration. So for me the Lagoons would not be high on my list, the tradeoff of performance for load carrying and living space to me simply isn't worth it. But I don't pretend that what is important to me works for everyone.

I like to sail fast. So I own an A-Class Catamaran that will sail circles around almost everything on this list. My wife like to sail comfortable (and we couldn't get an extra wide slip) so we also have a Beneteau 381. Different boats for different needs.

What irritates me is when you see a company like Lagoon promote their boats as performance cruisers. They simply are not. Give me a day or so to strip down a Lagoon 42 and I could take tons of equipment off of it, if we then did a speed test sure the boat would perform well. But what that's relative to I couldn't tell you.

Lagoon took some video of their new toy in absolute lightship mode sailing with a professional crew, in high winds, and very flat water, at the absolute ideal wnd angle, likely with current in their favor, and hit 16kn. This simply doesn't impress me. Now had they shown shots of the interior with all the floor boards in place, and the tanks half full, and a generator installed, and the rest of what the boat is specced with doing the would have been somewhat meaningful.

But I always keep in mind a Tripp 40 I used to race on, when we got to Key West one year we stripped almost 3,000lbs out of the boat after doing the delivery there. If they were smart Lagoon did the same here. But it's marketing not reality.
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Old 31-03-2016, 02:22   #62
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post

What irritates me is when you see a company like Lagoon promote their boats as performance cruisers.
rubbish. See this polar from lagoon website:

http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen...olaire_400.pdf

I can assure you that this is considerably underestimated graph for my cat that I estimate weights around 11,500 kg.
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Old 31-03-2016, 22:02   #63
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
What irritates me is when you see a company like Lagoon promote their boats as performance cruisers.
Performance cruisers? Rubbish, all right.

Of course it's marketing. What else do you call a promotional video?

It's just that when Lagoon release a new model, all the armchair experts "predict" that it will sail like a pig. Period. These predictions are based on their long held opinions (bias?) not an educated assessment, without even laying eyes on the boat and aired at all and sundry, including this forum. So, is it any wonder that the people who are trying to sell this boat do their best to demonstrate that the boat is actually capable of sailing? Sailing fast, in fact.

Of course the boat would have been made as light as possible. Of course large sails, ideal conditions and optimal point of sail were used. It does illustrate what most Lagoon owners already know; that with larger sails and a good breeze the boats are capable of reasonable speeds. This is possible even if the boat is carrying substantial cruising payloads. The real sailing "pigs" are the overloaded "performance cruisers", especially the smaller ones that are weighed down with the necessities of live aboard cruising.

BTW, I wouldn't place a great deal of credibility on those PHRF ratings, given that they seem to rate a Lagoon 420 faster than a 380.
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:30   #64
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

As a potential buyer of Lagoon 42, I assure you anybody that is going to write a check for one of these boats is smart enough to realize that this is not a performance catamaran. Of course they show the 42 racing along in ideal conditions...guess what the Outremer 45 people send me the exact same videos to show off their boats prowess on the water. All carbon, no hard bimini, no dinghy, no gas in the tanks, and one skinny chick on board and the boat doing 24 knots. Nobody is "fooled" by this stuff...both nice capable boats built with different purposes in mind. First world worries for sure : )
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:42   #65
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

PHRF numbers are based on both formulas and actual racing results so you can use them as a reasonable guide to performance but remember that these ratings are based on a triangle course, windward leg, reaching leg and downwind. Many of the cruising cats sail poorly to windward but reach ok and are relatively fast downwind so keep that in mind when looking at these ratings.
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:02   #66
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
rubbish. See this polar from lagoon website:

http://www.cata-lagoon.com/site_agen...olaire_400.pdf

I can assure you that this is considerably underestimated graph for my cat that I estimate weights around 11,500 kg.
I have sailed quite a few nm on a 2011 L400 and a 2014 L400S2 (this one with flexofold) and 9 knots max speed in 20 knots TWS seems about right to me. We are talking about standard genoa and mainsail on flat water. I would be surprised you can go considerably faster in those conditions.
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:06   #67
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
BTW, I wouldn't place a great deal of credibility on those PHRF ratings, given that they seem to rate a Lagoon 420 faster than a 380.
And the L470 is the slowest of them all....
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Old 01-04-2016, 14:06   #68
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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I have sailed quite a few nm on a 2011 L400 and a 2014 L400S2 (this one with flexofold) and 9 knots max speed in 20 knots TWS seems about right to me. We are talking about standard genoa and mainsail on flat water. I would be surprised you can go considerably faster in those conditions.
I never sail in flat water. No such thing around sydney. Notable and tested number of times difference is at angle 50 true and 15 kn true wind, I can do 6 kn in reasonable conditions. Polar says 5 kn.

Gennaker polars are considerably understated as well and gennakar goes to 70-80 true, depending on conditions. Polar has it 110. Gennaker adds 1.5-2 kn on average vs white sails.

I have flex but no square top.

I have not tested enough 20 kn true reaching to be able to say as speedo is not accurate and there is plenty of current and whirls.

I am still building arsenal of barber haulers & my own polar to make my L 400 into decent passage boat.
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Old 01-04-2016, 14:42   #69
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

Well, I guess the bottom line is whether a judgement can be made on the vessel without trying it out.

I like it. I like the muscle look to the design. I like the interior space and the walk round berths.

I like the helm, but know I might put a bit of glass in front of me for colder trips.

Its not sexy but getting there...
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Old 01-04-2016, 15:09   #70
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
I never sail in flat water. No such thing around sydney. Notable and tested number of times difference is at angle 50 true and 15 kn true wind, I can do 6 kn in reasonable conditions. Polar says 5 kn.
I am not used to TWA upwind so I had to draw it and that makes about 37 AWA ! I don't think I ever sailed so close to the wind on a lagoon, except when reefing. But wait a minute, I thought lagoon were true cruisers' boat and true cruisers never sailed upwind ?!

Quote:
Gennaker polars are considerably understated as well and gennakar goes to 70-80 true, depending on conditions. Polar has it 110. Gennaker adds 1.5-2 kn on average vs white sails.
Little experience with gennaker on the L400 but from what I saw on the L440 I would agree with you here.

Quote:
I have flex but no square top.

I have not tested enough 20 kn true reaching to be able to say as speedo is not accurate and there is plenty of current and whirls.

I am still building arsenal of barber haulers & my own polar to make my L 400 into decent passage boat.
After a clean bottom and folding props my next priority would be a big flat spinnaker from DDW to ~75 AWA.
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Old 02-04-2016, 04:57   #71
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

Quote:
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I am not used to TWA upwind so I had to draw it and that makes about 37 AWA ! I don't think I ever sailed so close to the wind on a lagoon, except when reefing. But wait a minute, I thought lagoon were true cruisers' boat and true cruisers never sailed upwind ?!

Little experience with gennaker on the L400 but from what I saw on the L440 I would agree with you here.

After a clean bottom and folding props my next priority would be a big flat spinnaker from DDW to ~75 AWA.
yes, L400 sails nicely at AWA 37 under AP. It goes higher if smoother conditions. I am still in learning/study mode for upwind. There is more involved than what one would expect to get cat well upwind. First - get speed then point to minimise drift !

I have sym spi, but reluctant to take it out as Gennker is such a nice sail and always preferred option

However, will have to take Spi out and start practising to get my passage averages to decent levels.
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:12   #72
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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ya true I didn't think of that, not saying I want a dishwasher but if you don't put 2 sinks then there should be space for a DW , plus there is something missing or just not right in the galley, under counter storage space...I don't like the cubby holes... maybe I am wrong.
I don't like the cubby holes either (good description) and only one sink is inconvenient, and as I said in a previous post why oh why don't they provide a two head option. If I remember correctly the early L400's only had a three heads, two heads were not a available option but that changed by the time they got to my hull 93 thank goodness.
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Old 03-04-2016, 07:21   #73
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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I don't like the cubby holes either (good description) and only one sink is inconvenient, and as I said in a previous post why oh why don't they provide a two head option. If I remember correctly the early L400's only had a three heads, two heads were not a available option but that changed by the time they got to my hull 93 thank goodness.
as for the 2 heads I agree and I would say that the aft head is a good size for a second head(just move the door to the hallway sliding door) and in the space of the forward head make a storage locker or pantry. for an owner version one should not need 3 heads, the two extra bedrooms are for family or guests, if 1 head is not good enough too bad....
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Old 03-04-2016, 13:20   #74
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Re: NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

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as for the 2 heads I agree and I would say that the aft head is a good size for a second head(just move the door to the hallway sliding door) and in the space of the forward head make a storage locker or pantry. for an owner version one should not need 3 heads, the two extra bedrooms are for family or guests, if 1 head is not good enough too bad....
I just want to say that I still like the 42 and if I could afford it right now I would probably buy it.
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Old 06-04-2016, 22:38   #75
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NEW LAGOON 42 coming soon

Seems the 42 is a Bigger Version of the 39.. People here disliked the 39,, But love the 42. Interesting
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