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Old 15-07-2017, 11:25   #61
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
"Lots of 39 in the new 40" is a refreshing admission, but probably not a good thing.



As far as "new boats being designed for code 0/ gennaker " and these being essential for light air performance; all I can say is "what' s new?"

All the "older" models of the past 15 years also required such sails for reasonable light air performance, and were designed for such. The difference is that the new models will have even less performance in the same conditions.



My question regarding these new models is; " performance and storage has lost, what has been gained?"


I'm not convinced this is an accurate assessment. I think the "new" models will out perform many of their predecessors. I looked (and sailed) closely at the 420 and 421 during each boat's first two years of production. I eliminated both from serious consideration. The new 42 is a tremendous improvement on the 420 and 421. Comparing each model, with white sails only, she is a better performer than the 420 or 421.

About the only thing better about the 420 and 421 is that they have much more storage, yet each model was easy to overload. If there is storage space, it will be used.

As compared to the 420 and 421, the new 42 is an easier boat for a short-handed crew to sail. The self-tacking jib, smaller main, and more user-friendly helm make her a great boat for a cruising couple (75% - 80% of all cruisers). A cruising couple will have more than enough storage on the new 42 with a bit of forethought. Forethought that should help prevent the dreaded overloading. The 42's engines are more accessible, her weight is better distributed, and her bows have more reserve buoyancy. There is less freeboard, less windage, and better visibility from both the helm and salon. Her wire runs, plumbing runs, and available space for after market upgrades are all better. Also, her aft winches and leads are set up for much more versatility in deploying spinnakers, code-0's, etc.

The 42 has performed very well in various rallies since her introduction. Also, I have tracked several over the course of their deliveries from Les Sables-d'Olonne to North America. Each delivery has been "on time" with very good average speeds. Sure, there is plenty of motoring on those deliveries, but in tracking deliveries, covering about 20K NM, the speeds are very, very respectable. Again, much better than the deliveries of the 420 and 421 in previous years, several of which I also tracked.

The new 42 is, to date, on track to become one of the best-selling cruising catamarans in history. Lagoon really has something special with the 42. Over 200 already ordered and about 150 in the water as of a few days ago. Those numbers don't happen unless the boat represents a significant improvement over its predecessors.
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Old 15-07-2017, 12:53   #62
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Woodall View Post
I'm not convinced this is an accurate assessment. I think the "new" models will out perform many of their predecessors. I looked (and sailed) closely at the 420 and 421 during each boat's first two years of production. I eliminated both from serious consideration. The new 42 is a tremendous improvement on the 420 and 421. Comparing each model, with white sails only, she is a better performer than the 420 or 421.

About the only thing better about the 420 and 421 is that they have much more storage, yet each model was easy to overload. If there is storage space, it will be used.

As compared to the 420 and 421, the new 42 is an easier boat for a short-handed crew to sail. The self-tacking jib, smaller main, and more user-friendly helm make her a great boat for a cruising couple (75% - 80% of all cruisers). A cruising couple will have more than enough storage on the new 42 with a bit of forethought. Forethought that should help prevent the dreaded overloading. The 42's engines are more accessible, her weight is better distributed, and her bows have more reserve buoyancy. There is less freeboard, less windage, and better visibility from both the helm and salon. Her wire runs, plumbing runs, and available space for after market upgrades are all better. Also, her aft winches and leads are set up for much more versatility in deploying spinnakers, code-0's, etc.

The 42 has performed very well in various rallies since her introduction. Also, I have tracked several over the course of their deliveries from Les Sables-d'Olonne to North America. Each delivery has been "on time" with very good average speeds. Sure, there is plenty of motoring on those deliveries, but in tracking deliveries, covering about 20K NM, the speeds are very, very respectable. Again, much better than the deliveries of the 420 and 421 in previous years, several of which I also tracked.

The new 42 is, to date, on track to become one of the best-selling cruising catamarans in history. Lagoon really has something special with the 42. Over 200 already ordered and about 150 in the water as of a few days ago. Those numbers don't happen unless the boat represents a significant improvement over its predecessors.
Jim, I've been following the 42 closely and agree with you 100%. The 42 is a great improvement over the 420 and 421, and that is being reflected in the sales numbers. But that is what makes the New 40 so perplexing. The specs just do not make any sense. It is barely an improvement on an already dreadful 39 and a major step down from the specs of the 400S2. The specs also can't compete with the FP Lucia, which is likely their main competitor at that price point. I just don't understand what they were thinking with this new 40 model. But I am glad they got it correct with the 42. We are on track to place an order for a 42 later this year
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Old 15-07-2017, 13:19   #63
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

BlueBuddha, we just received hand over of Hull# 146 earlier this week. I think she will head out of Les Sables in the next couple of days. I'm not sure where the hull#'s are based on orders, but I think it's well over 200. One thing that impressed and surprised us was that Lagoon nailed our ex-factory date and hand-over date. We were certain production would fall behind schedule, but it never did. We are anxiously expecting delivery by early-to-mid-September. I've talked with numerous owners, thus far everyone has expressed great praise for their boats. There are, as always, a few criticisms like: wishing there was more galley and cockpit storage, and a bit more tankage, but those are the only real criticisms I've heard. I'm sure as the boats get more use other things will come up, but the praise for the boat: it's sailing ability, ease of handling, and seakeeping has been consistent. Owners are certainly biased, but I think it is going to prove to be a fantastic catamaran!
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Old 15-07-2017, 18:02   #64
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Congrats on the new boat Jim! I may pick your brain later on when we start making decisions about options.
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Old 15-07-2017, 18:32   #65
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Probably more appeal to their target market. Remember that sales drive their decisions not philosophy - and that is not a criticism, just the reality of their business model
I would have thought that ALL catamaran manufacturers use projected sales figures rather than philosophy to drive planning decisions. The companies that haven't gone broke, at least.

"Appeal to target market? " Yes, but what is that appeal and how is it improved from previous models? I own a previous model so may be biased, but am really trying to be objective.

Is it easier sailing handling and tacking due to smaller sails and self tacking jib? An open uncluttered cockpit ŗ la Bali, Nautitech or Seawind ?
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Old 15-07-2017, 18:43   #66
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

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Originally Posted by BlueBuddha View Post
Jim, I've been following the 42 closely and agree with you 100%. The 42 is a great improvement over the 420 and 421, and that is being reflected in the sales numbers. But that is what makes the New 40 so perplexing. The specs just do not make any sense. It is barely an improvement on an already dreadful 39 and a major step down from the specs of the 400S2. The specs also can't compete with the FP Lucia, which is likely their main competitor at that price point. I just don't understand what they were thinking with this new 40 model. But I am glad they got it correct with the 42. We are on track to place an order for a 42 later this year
I quite agree. The old L420/421 model was designed for a specific purpose; to be the world's first production hybrid electric drive sailing catamaran. Whilst still a great boat, this design imperative was not successful, for many reasons. The new 42 may well be an improvement over the L420/421in many ways, but it has a totally different design brief.

As you say, this thread discusses the new 40 and 50, so we should compare the new 40 to the previous L39 and L400 models.
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Old 15-07-2017, 18:47   #67
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Lets face it these boats cannot sail out of sight on a fine day they are motor boats with a lot of useless sticks and strings add .
Dont get me started on the build structure.
There needs to be another term for these things other than Catamaran it is embarrasing.
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Old 15-07-2017, 18:54   #68
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
As you say, this thread discusses the new 40 and 50, so we should compare the new 40 to the previous L39 and L400 models.
Here is a table with some metrics I've been tracking. It includes the L40, L400S2, L39. The L40 is barely better than the 39 and that is a very low bar to beat. It is not even close to the FP Lucia in all metrics.
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Old 15-07-2017, 19:04   #69
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

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Originally Posted by Lance Reynolds View Post
Lets face it these boats cannot sail out of sight on a fine day they are motor boats with a lot of useless sticks and strings add .
Dont get me started on the build structure.
There needs to be another term for these things other than Catamaran it is embarrasing.
Thanks Lance, but there's plenty of long term live aboards doing significant cruising passages under sail in Lagoon catamarans that will disagree with you.

Have you tried trolling off the back of a catamaran?
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Old 15-07-2017, 19:09   #70
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

400 sails great, more beam and a bit longer, lot less weight. Not sure of price point in USD on 40 yet, spoke with my dealer on Fri. He said will be shown at Miami 18 for North America introduction.

As tuskie said, 42 definitely was needed as the previous 42 footer was an experiment. The current 400 might be hard to improve upon.
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Old 16-07-2017, 14:16   #71
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Reynolds View Post
Lets face it these boats cannot sail out of sight on a fine day they are motor boats with a lot of useless sticks and strings add .
Dont get me started on the build structure.
There needs to be another term for these things other than Catamaran it is embarrasing.
after 18K nm, there was no single breakage, excluding anchor winch that broke because sd 50 slipping in busy anchorage.

I will pray tonight your boat is as good build quality.

Oh yeah, before you ask, I have 640 hours on each motor.
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Old 16-07-2017, 17:48   #72
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Reynolds View Post
Lets face it these boats cannot sail out of sight on a fine day they are motor boats with a lot of useless sticks and strings add .
Dont get me started on the build structure.
There needs to be another term for these things other than Catamaran it is embarrasing.


A patently incorrect statement. Lagoon and other production catamarans are safely crossing oceans literally everyday. Today's production catamarans are doing so with great comfort, and with amenities unheard of (except on million dollar boats) only a few years ago. Virtually unlimited fresh water, daily hot showers, ice makers, refrigeration, and the list goes on - are available on almost all production catamarans. Of course, even the slow ones achieve overall speeds that rival or exceed the overall speeds of comparable size monohulls. It's almost embarrassing to get all that in a boat that has useless sticks and strings!
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Old 16-07-2017, 21:10   #73
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

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Originally Posted by Jim Woodall View Post
A patently incorrect statement. Lagoon and other production catamarans are safely crossing oceans literally everyday.


Yes they are! And enjoying every moment!

www.sailblogs.com/members/emeraldsea

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Old 22-07-2017, 23:04   #74
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
400 sails great, more beam and a bit longer, lot less weight. Not sure of price point in USD on 40 yet, spoke with my dealer on Fri. He said will be shown at Miami 18 for North America introduction.

As tuskie said, 42 definitely was needed as the previous 42 footer was an experiment. The current 400 might be hard to improve upon.
I have been ready to buy a new cat simply because my L400 is now about seven years old, it is in excellent condition very low use and I continue to replace and upgrade anything that is starting to look a bit daggy, just replaced all the mirrors as a dark line was starting to develop around the edges, upgraded the dual plotters, radar, bimini and clears etc, next daggy bit to be fixed is the white filler around the bottom of the saloon windows etc etc. So what is my point. I thought the L42 would be an excellent upgrade for me but after spending a lot of time checking it out and test sailing it, Iím blowed if I know why it has been such a smash hit, now there is a lot to like about the L42S but there is some serious shortcomings in my view the main one being if you want two water tanks you lose space in the front outside lockers, in my L400 my front locker takes two water tanks anchor and chain, sundry stuff and comfortably two foldaway electric bicycles. The outside seating all have storage underneath, one seat takes my factory fitted gen set, another takes my gas tank for the BBQ and stove, another takes my spare back up gas tank and other stuff, the rear table seat has a very large storage area I keep my back up mooring lines boat hooks and many other bits and pieces. It is so convenient to have adequate storage, I also prefer my two speed electric winch equipped davit system on my L400, so easy, however I have not used the new davit design so cannot be to harsh on that, I would like any L42 owners to comment on their thoughts of the new davit system in practice. I really donít like a single sink in the galley, I sure as hell donít like those bird nest storage nooky things around the galley, try accessing the port overhead storage cupboard you will be lucky if you donít fall down the port stairs and break you neck! The steering helm seat is the same as on my L400 but without the arm rests, cost cutting I guess. Do like the self-tacker, do like the fibre glass Bimini top, do like the ladder access to the roof. Of a minor comment, I noticed on a L42 recently arrived at my home Marina, I noticed the mooring lines while connected to the pontoon rubs on the side of the L42 hull due to itís shape, quite a rub mark developed on the white gel coat. needs some sort of a protector where the hull shape bows out about a quarter of the way down from the deck. So I have not found any compelling reasons amongst the latest crop of new Catamaran offerings including the L42 to change from the L400, just my thoughts as always. Looking forward to sighting the new L40 maybe that has what it takes to outshine the L400, but JBinbi may be correct the current L400 may be hard to improve on. I have attached a couple of pics including a nice sail recently in my L400 around with SOG of around 9.5 knots in about 20 knots, when sailing the 42S I saw 11 knots SOG in 28 knots, so not much difference in speed and it was empty and new.
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Old 23-07-2017, 14:57   #75
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Re: New Lagoon 40 & 50 announced.

Hi Peter,
Will you be making the trip north to the Sydney Boat Show. 3rd - 7th August..
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