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Old 13-12-2015, 09:41   #16
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

..money talk.. if you have hard cash (no check), you can go down up to 25%
I bough under that conditions.. second, a good survey is a very good tool but can backfire to you if owner start thinking about remove stuff from the boat.
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Old 13-12-2015, 09:53   #17
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

Of course you need to negotiate the price point before survey. Otherwise you already spent a few thousand on haulout and survey so the seller knows he has you hooked.

I'd start with 15-20% off the asking. Some sellers may accept such a low offer after some haggling but then most sellers will not accept further reductions based on survey results. It's either take it or leave it.

If its already priced fair and demand is strong then this may not be accepted. If the seller accepts only a small reduction like 5 % I'd have the surveyor list as many little issues as he can find...
And make sure you have plenty of time for the survey _and_ afterwards to decide if you accept or reject the boat.
That will no only allow you to really take your time, but will also give some presure to the seller. He can't negotiate with other buyers while waiting for your acceptance. Time is money: not only for mooring and maintenance! In about a month the boat the perception of the boat will be one year older (perception wise, as everyone just looks at the build year)

If the boat is really good _and_ at a good price you may be left with paying close to asking or just a few percent off. Nothing wrong with that.

The most important thing is:
Get a surveyor who knows what he is doing (and be there when he is doing it). He needs to check for delamination and moisture in the balsa core of both hull and deck. The surveyor will need to percussion test / tap every few centimeter, and do another round with a moisture meter.


BTW: Nice boat!
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Old 13-12-2015, 10:16   #18
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

The doctor gave you good advice. If they refuse a take-it-or-leave-it offer there is no law preventing you from changing your mind and upping the bid but they may not believe you a second time.
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Old 13-12-2015, 10:25   #19
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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I'd start with 15-20% off the asking.
If its already priced fair and demand is strong then this may not be accepted. If the seller accepts only a small reduction like 5 % I'd have the surveyor list as many little issues as he can find...
Erhm ... so you ignore the boat, survey, fair price etc. and start with 15-20% as a rule?

A good surveyor (and granted, not all are) will list everything that matters without having to ask. Kind of why they're there.

My current boat I offered 25% below asking and after a little back-and-forward, my offer was accepted. The one before, I offered 95% and was told no so I paid asking price Both were good deals.

The point being: there is no "x% off" rule. Some boats are priced to sell, some (most) aren't.

When someone offers me a price that makes me go "wtf" than I'm done. Never been so pushed to sell that I'd sell for way to less to a person who obviously doesn't want to pay a fair price but just wants a cheap boat. Those people, I'd rather not sell to anyway so it's just a no from me, not a counter offer. But maybe that's just me
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Old 13-12-2015, 10:25   #20
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

I think some of the replies might be a bit more relevant to lower end purchase. Maybe a boat asking 20K will drop 25% to 15K, and maybe cash is an option in those circumstances. But a 300K (asking market price) boat dropping to 225K and paying cash?! Good luck with that. I wonder what the escrow agent would say when you drop a big bag of cash on his desk 💰
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Old 13-12-2015, 10:27   #21
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

(Lizzy said it better than I did...)
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Old 13-12-2015, 11:15   #22
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

The willingness to negotiate price on anything is dependent on the number of interested buyers and the need of the seller to move it.

Winter in the Caribbean, probably a pretty good market.

Motivation to sell, is it a private sale (done sailing, divorce, etc) or a charter company (able to hang on to inventory a bit longer to get the right price, not emotionally attached, etc)?

Once you know these things about any commodity you want, the power in the deal shift toward you. You can choose to negotiate the heck out of it, or set a price in your head above which you will not go. After that you must be willing to walk away. The sight of your rear end as you leave usually motivates a seller to reconsider the price and at least come down one more time. But you can only do the walk away thing once - after that the seller's fear factor leaves and his ego enters.

Just a few thoughts that I hope will help (and you may know all this anyway)- I don't know about later model cat's but wish you lots of luck!
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Old 13-12-2015, 11:26   #23
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

Thank you all for your input!
Our situation is that we have pre-qual'd for one loan but the lender wanted the boat to be in the US (continental) to take ownership. We have since applied with another lender that will allow ownership to take place in the Caribbean, Martinique for this particular boat. The financing is not a concern at this point.

We have tried to do our due-diligence by comparing as many similar boats throughout the Caribbean as we can. We have looked at year built, onboard equipment and price. This particular boat seems to be on the low end of pricing from our comparison. But we will not know until we see the survey. Monte did point out to us that the VAT has been paid. This seller may be trying to re-coup some of the paid tax. Good point!

We have also researched a surveyor and have one lined up. He comes recommended from several here on CF too. He has agreed to a pre-survey prior to our going to Martinique. And then a discounted main survey if all looks promising from our visual inspection and his input from the pre-survey.

I guess then it is all ready for the negotiating of the first offer. Rabbi mentioned putting time for consideration of all the details into the offer. Great idea! There will be a lot to review and comprehend once the survey has been completed.

Again, thanks for all you suggestions.

Craig
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Old 13-12-2015, 11:33   #24
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
I think some of the replies might be a bit more relevant to lower end purchase. Maybe a boat asking 20K will drop 25% to 15K, and maybe cash is an option in those circumstances. But a 300K (asking market price) boat dropping to 225K and paying cash?! Good luck with that. I wonder what the escrow agent would say when you drop a big bag of cash on his desk 💰

Humm.. I got my first lagoon paying $380K on hard cash.. a full bag of cash but I got a big discount... Every time I got a boat, first thing I explain at broker or owner is "this is a hard cash operation.." I'm not a believer of our beloved banking system... just in the green religion..
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Old 13-12-2015, 12:00   #25
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
I think some of the replies might be a bit more relevant to lower end purchase. Maybe a boat asking 20K will drop 25% to 15K, and maybe cash is an option in those circumstances. But a 300K (asking market price) boat dropping to 225K and paying cash?! Good luck with that. I wonder what the escrow agent would say when you drop a big bag of cash on his desk 💰
Cash or not doesn't matter of course on most serious deals. But cash allows the buyer to move quickly. Under special circumstances a fast moving buyer can have excellent deals.


Example:
In December 2010 I bought a Lagoon 410 at ~30% below realistic market value. The deal was done in cash because I had to meet a very short deadline (two weeks from first contact to finish).
I had the survey done on christmas and had to fly to spain with a backpack full of cash at Dec 30. That was the only way to get the money to Spain in time.

The background of this deal: The seller had a pending productions slot for a Ferrari California that he had to confirm before it expired on Dec 31st.
This guy was really wealthy but he needed one of his toys gone so his wife allowed him to buy the next toy.

Both sides were equally happy.


I sold two years later in the Caribbean and the price covered all my cost of two years ownership (purchase price, repairs, upgrades, maintenance, mooring) and I still had some change left to cover a good part of our 1year sabatical cruise.


One really needs luck for a deal like this.
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Old 13-12-2015, 12:09   #26
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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Humm.. I got my first lagoon paying $380K on hard cash.. a full bag of cash but I got a big discount... Every time I got a boat, first thing I explain at broker or owner is "this is a hard cash operation.." I'm not a believer of our beloved banking system... just in the green religion..

So how did that work. You flew to the broker or she was nearby? You went to the bank and withdrew $380K and then drove to the brokers office and handed it over? Security guards? And repeated the process for deposit and delivery process?
Honestly I can't imagine any benefit to the seller. Personally I'd prefer see an electronic transfer appear in my bank account and I doubt I would be giving any discounts to the buyer for the extra leg work required. For smaller transactions I've used and had cash discounts.
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Old 13-12-2015, 12:15   #27
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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Cash or not doesn't matter of course on most serious deals. But cash allows the buyer to move quickly. Under special circumstances a fast moving buyer can have excellent deals.





Example:

In December 2010 I bought a Lagoon 410 at ~30% below realistic market value. The deal was done in cash because I had to meet a very short deadline (two weeks from first contact to finish).

I had the survey done on christmas and had to fly to spain with a backpack full of cash at Dec 30. That was the only way to get the money to Spain in time.



The background of this deal: The seller had a pending productions slot for a Ferrari California that he had to confirm before it expired on Dec 31st.

This guy was really wealthy but he needed one of his toys gone so his wife allowed him to buy the next toy.



Both sides were equally happy.





I sold two years later in the Caribbean and the price covered all my cost of two years ownership (purchase price, repairs, upgrades, maintenance, mooring) and I still had some change left to cover a good part of our 1year sabatical cruise.





One really needs luck for a deal like this.

Yes there's definitely rare great deals like that. Right place, right time and right contacts etc. I'm guessing you knew most of the details from a broker contact who knew you were in the market to buy. Did you put the backpack in overhead luggage or cuddle it the whole way?
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Old 13-12-2015, 12:17   #28
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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Erhm ... so you ignore the boat, survey, fair price etc. and start with 15-20% as a rule?

A good surveyor (and granted, not all are) will list everything that matters without having to ask. Kind of why they're there.

My current boat I offered 25% below asking and after a little back-and-forward, my offer was accepted. The one before, I offered 95% and was told no so I paid asking price Both were good deals.

The point being: there is no "x% off" rule. Some boats are priced to sell, some (most) aren't.

When someone offers me a price that makes me go "wtf" than I'm done. Never been so pushed to sell that I'd sell for way to less to a person who obviously doesn't want to pay a fair price but just wants a cheap boat. Those people, I'd rather not sell to anyway so it's just a no from me, not a counter offer. But maybe that's just me
There is no xx% rule. But as you say most asking prices are inflated. Realisitc sellers expect some haggling and inflate the price a bit to allow for this haggling.

No realistic seller expects to get 100% of his asking price. Most are happy with a little less. The buyer can try to find how much "a little less" is.
With a first offer of 15-20% I don't think one would offend a seller. Most sellers will give a counter offer and then talk can continue towards a deal.


On the other hand there are boats with ridiculous prices like 50% above market value. I don't even talk to these guys as I know they are offended by my offer. These boats sit on the market forever.
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Old 13-12-2015, 12:25   #29
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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The point being: there is no "x% off" rule. Some boats are priced to sell, some (most) aren't.
This should be the required answer for all of these silly "What should I offer?" and "How do I make a deal?" posts. They are so tiresome. Thanks for a good dose of reality.

If someone doesn't know what they are looking at, then they haven't done their homework and research, or are in too much of a hurry.
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Old 13-12-2015, 12:47   #30
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Re: Negotiating the price on a 400 Lagoon, 2011

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Yes there's definitely rare great deals like that. Right place, right time and right contacts etc. I'm guessing you knew most of the details from a broker contact who knew you were in the market to buy. Did you put the backpack in overhead luggage or cuddle it the whole way?
You are right. A broker sent me the details when the boat was lowered signifcantly.
He caught me on an unsuccessful boat-buying trip to the Caribbean so I was ready for the deal. We started negotiations and the seller dropped the price much further under the constraint that the deal must be finished by end of december.

I immediately arranged flights to Spain and started looking for a surveyor and a yard nearby that could lift a 410. I even called the bank to inform them of a large withdrawal as banks in Germany don't stock that much money, and holidays complicate these things.
It felt like I spent days on the phone but the boat was worth it.

There were numerous other buyers with higher offers waiting in line but none was able to make a deal in that timeframe during holiday season.


And yes, I cuddled my backpack all the time and had a friend join me for the trip. We both had a bad hangover from christmas parties and looked like we can't afford more than two beers. Luckily we had no surprises .
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