Lagoon Comparison

[impi]

Originally Posted by cataworld

I agree this is absolutely very dangerous to be in bad weather with a catamaran and i mean this problem concern all of them,.

Sorry Cataworld, but you lack knowledge in this area !

We have been in severe gales with our catamaran ... no one likes to be in this situation for sure, but our catamaran has handled EXTREME weather including huge waves off Cape Point in South Africa.

Perhaps you were having a bad day?

[dirkdig]

What D&D said.

I wish I had of known that catamarans are so dangerous to go out in.
When we sailed through 55 knots in our 440 off Australia I just should have abandoned ship,next time then,now I know the dangers

[peterp]

Hello D&D, Well said. Regards Peter

[Sand crab]

About 700 of those 380s built so far. Not all are sitting in the Caribbean. Some are actually circumnavigating. I'm not even a fan of this boat but dammit man.

[pathlesschosen]

Thanks everybody for you input comparing Lagoons.

For the input regarding seaworthiness of catamarans. Having spent 20 years plying the Alaskan waters I know a thing or two regarding rough seas. Would I purchase a catamaran for use in Alaska waters? Heck no. Well maybe the inside passage. Would I trust a Lagoon 380 on a trade wind circumnavigate, absolutely. Would I prefer an Outremer 49, once again, absolutely.

I am considering other brands besides Lagoon, but the admiral gave me her preference. The old saying, guys like girls and girls like shiny things. So I am looking at Lagoons.

If someone would chime in regarding the Lagoon 410 galley I would greatly appreciate it. The galley seems narrow but has plenty of storage. How is the overall galley use during extended cruising? In addition, please comment on the overall stability of the 410 and the seating at the nav station.

The Lagoon 400 seems like a good compromise. I am a little concerned with the windage and overall sailing ability. The dealer likes to sell the boat as a racer but I am hesitant. Looks to me like a great floating condo with decent sailing ability. Any info regarding stability and sailing performance?

Thanks again.

[Lagoon4us]

LMAO you need to slap that dealer!!!!! Lagoon's are cruisers and i agree a very good trade wind boat, quick enough for the purpose.
Good luck with your eventual choice.... Cheers

[Intentional Drifter]

Your dealer is starting to count his (formerly your) money! You are correct; they are nice floating condos with a layout designed for being at the dock and at anchor. Now, before people jump on me for that, that's not necessarily a bad thing, just depends on how you expect to use it. Some of them sail very nicely (410's are OK, 440's actually very nicely, post-2001 470's even better), others not so much, at least if you want to get past 50% windspeed (not surfing).

In my opinion, Lagoons suffer from the same problem as anything else that is built to a price point -- they often skimp on the details and quality in order to trim a euro here and there. I saw one of the newer ones where they had stopped flowcoating the bilges, for example. Not properly finishing off the mast gooseneck so that it was chafing through all the mast wiring. A bulkhead that wasn't properly tabbed in such that it just had roving waving in the breeze and would have quickly failed. Booms built "just enough" to do the job, but not over-strength enough to deal with unanticipated forces.

Now, fortunately, almost all of these sorts of things can be remedied by an owner. Sure, they will cost you some, but doing so will save on frustration and expense, later.

It often isn't the design -- VPLP has done some very nice designs -- but the execution. Personally, if I was looking in the 48 to 52 foot range and like the Lagoons, I'd spend a bit more time and find a Switch. Another VPLP design that shares many of the features of a Lagoon, but well built, on steroids. Luxury, quality, and excellent sailing, too.

ID

[Oliver L.]

Pathlesschosen,

we chartered a 410 before we finally bought our 470 - the overriding issue was headroom. I could not stand up straight in the hulls.

One comment regarding the steering seat on the 410 - for me it was annoying that you could not get in from the cockpit, but had to go around the outside. Which happened frequently during our 2-week cruise, not always in good weather, and not always did it feel good. On the 470 you can get to the steering seat directly from the cockpit...

My 2 cents - and please remember - now that I have my boat, I am biased...

Oliver

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

Your dealer is starting to count his (formerly your) money! You are correct; they are nice floating condos with a layout designed for being at the dock and at anchor. Now, before people jump on me for that, that's not necessarily a bad thing, just depends on how you expect to use it. Some of them sail very nicely (410's are OK, 440's actually very nicely, post-2001 470's even better), others not so much, at least if you want to get past 50% windspeed (not surfing).

In my opinion, Lagoons suffer from the same problem as anything else that is built to a price point -- they often skimp on the details and quality in order to trim a euro here and there. I saw one of the newer ones where they had stopped flowcoating the bilges, for example. Not properly finishing off the mast gooseneck so that it was chafing through all the mast wiring. A bulkhead that wasn't properly tabbed in such that it just had roving waving in the breeze and would have quickly failed. Booms built "just enough" to do the job, but not over-strength enough to deal with unanticipated forces.

Now, fortunately, almost all of these sorts of things can be remedied by an owner. Sure, they will cost you some, but doing so will save on frustration and expense, later.

It often isn't the design -- VPLP has done some very nice designs -- but the execution. Personally, if I was looking in the 48 to 52 foot range and like the Lagoons, I'd spend a bit more time and find a Switch. Another VPLP design that shares many of the features of a Lagoon, but well built, on steroids. Luxury, quality, and excellent sailing, too.

ID

I do like the SWITCH 50, and i would think one would make a fantastic cruiser.

The extra 110k in price would kill us.

Our choice on a 440 is certainly based on a number of points, the first one was price, initially we were set on a 'Leopard' however the Aussie dollar took off putting a 440 into our budget.

A 3 cabin version suits us as we see no point in carrying 4 heads and beds around, just a toilet in each hull would be enough on a 44ft yacht.

Our 440 will be changed to suit us-
Performance:
1) A set of hard working sails to give some increased performance to windward.
2) Folding props.
3) Increase in ground tackle, us Aussies don't use rope rodes.
4) An asymetrical kite.

Fitout:
1) Remove settee in owners cabin and replace with a useful cupboard.
2) Increase solar capability.
3) Install AIS, HF Radio, Wifi.

Other members on this Forum have recently crossed both the Pacific and Atlantic in opposing directions, this gives us confidence.

I agree with your comments on newer builds, sometimes the accountants decisions interefere in final finish.

Personally i don't like the squareness of the joinery in the new builds and i really question the idea of forward opening doors in the new Leopard, the ramifications of that idea will no doubt be played out sometime in the future.

Lagoon's, Leopards and to some extent Voyage cats are being designed and built to meet the bareboat charter market that's a given, and because that market is controlled in the sense of where the boats operate and the safety they enjoy by being close to a homebase they will become more condo like.

Cheers Frank.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Our choice on a 440 is certainly based on a number of points, the first one was price...the Aussie dollar took off putting a 440 into our budget.

A 3 cabin version suits us ...

Our 440 will be changed to suit us...

Fitout:
3) Install AIS, HF Radio, Wifi.

That all sounds very familiar () and very sensible Frank.

FWIW though, you might want to give some thought to sat comms, rather than the HF radio. We found the sat comms excellent on 'blue water', with their pin-point accuracy (call exactly who you want to speak to) which is now supplemented with emergency calling ability and -- This was a big one for us -- data capability for weather and emails. There are some good and not-so-good deals out there for sat comms, but they are generally about the same setup cost (or even a bit less if you find a good deal) as an HF radio. PM us if you want more details.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by D&D

That all sounds very familiar () and very sensible Frank.

FWIW though, you might want to give some thought to sat comms, rather than the HF radio. We found the sat comms excellent on 'blue water', with their pin-point accuracy (call exactly who you want to speak to) which is now supplemented with emergency calling ability and -- This was a big one for us -- data capability for weather and emails. There are some good and not-so-good deals out there for sat comms, but they are generally about the same setup cost (or even a bit less if you find a good deal) as an HF radio. PM us if you want more details.

Thanks the cat we are looking at comes with an Iridium phone however we would be grateful to hear what you found actually worked rather than re-invent the wheel.
I forgot to add the all important fishing gear, love those Mahi Mahi.

We will be in Europe around 5th April to close on one of the three.....

Cheers we'll keep in touch. Frank

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Thanks the cat we are looking at comes with an Iridium phone however we would be grateful to hear what you found actually worked rather than re-invent the wheel.
I forgot to add the all important fishing gear, love those Mahi Mahi.

We will be in Europe around 5th April to close on one of the three.....

Cheers we'll keep in touch. Frank

Good luck Frank...it all sounds exciting! ...and familiar too......mahi mahi and tuna by the freezer-full...yum!

Our sat comms are Inmarsat, but which way you should go (Inmarsat vs Iridium) depends on where you'll be...and then there's all the plans as well. PM us when you're ready to look at it all.

When do you reckon you'll be back in OZ?...if ever?!?

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by D&D

Good luck Frank...it all sounds exciting! ...and familiar too......mahi mahi and tuna by the freezer-full...yum!

Our sat comms are Inmarsat, but which way you should go (Inmarsat vs Iridium) depends on where you'll be...and then there's all the plans as well. PM us when you're ready to look at it all.

When do you reckon you'll be back in OZ?...if ever?!?

The main contender is in the med so if thats the one we 'close on' we will cruise there for a year or two then over to the Caribbean, Panama and into the Pacific.

I would think 4 or so years but much depends on the economy, right now our area is booming with the LNG rage so things are good for a foreseeable 5 or 6 years.

We came very close to buying a 410 however the 440 had an advantage over it for sailing ability/room and as far as price they are very very similar now.


Cheers

[peterp]

The Lagoon 400 seems like a good compromise. I am a little concerned with the windage and overall sailing ability. The dealer likes to sell the boat as a racer but I am hesitant. Looks to me like a great floating condo with decent sailing ability. Any info regarding stability and sailing performance?

Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

Hello pathlesschosen, I have owned my Lagoon 400 from new since September 2010. Firstly it ain’t a racer none of the cruising cats are that I have test sailed. To try and answer your specific question “Any info regarding stability and sailing performance?” in general terms the following has been my experience, I am quoting numbers in conditions that do not include help with a fast following tide or surfing conditions, best speed over ground I have seen was 9.2 knots in 26 to 30 knots of wind, then around the 7.5 to 8.5 knots in 16 to 25 knots of wind, in 6 to 12 knots of wind I see around the 4 to 6.5 knots. Most times in nice sailing conditions we always see speeds of 7 knots plus. With respect to “stability”, well that depends on conditions, on one of the very first learning trips we experienced a lovely smooth four hour downwind cruise in about 28 knots of wind, on arrival to our destination I had to turn 180 degrees into wind and into the waves to drop our sail, boy did that very stable platform turn into something quite different all went well however. When making way a couple of weeks ago under power heading dead into a 34 knot wind, waves around the 2 meters I just had to slow down to suit the conditions maintained speeds of 3 to 5.5 knots for a reasonable ride, did not want to scare my dog or she who must be obeyed. Overall I think the L400 is very stable, in sailing conditions of say winds of 10 to 30 knots, she rides beautifully just sits there gliding along. What did surprise me was the ease of handling for such a large craft, (or large for me), tacking for example is so simple I just turn the wheel, the bow goes thru the wind, then I have found I can let the wheel go just long enough to allow my right foot to activate the electric winch winding the sheet across and in, leaves both my hands free to control the jammers etc, as soon as I am on the wind on the opposite tack my hands are back on the wheel fine tuning the heading and adjusting the sheet, this all happens quite quickly and smoothly it just about tacks around by itself once you start the turn. With regards to mooring, the L400 is 7.25 meters wide which provides a lot of turning power when backing into a mooring, I have now experienced conditions from calm to a shocker the other night of 33 gusting to 36 knots of crosswind whist mooring, one just has to read the wind prior to manoeuvring apply the correct amount of asymmetric thrust to suit the conditions and in she goes. In summary the layout of the owners version is about as good as it gets for us that is, priorities for me was foremost protection from the sun and wind, the L400 ticked that box, we have been out in the pouring rain with everything zipped up we are totally protected from the elements with a excellent view out. We recently lived on board for 3 weeks our first extended stay that’s when one really appreciates the excellent design and space, the galley up in the saloon area interacts with the big table outside and inside with the sliding window between open extremely well. In summary I think in my six years researching and test sailing cats the L400 is a great compromise and is the perfect size for a couple like us. Hope this helps.
Regards Peter

[peterp]

Just to add my 2 cents worth on the sat phone thing and not wanting to change the thread, I have been thinking about adding to the communications lately on my L400, whilst the sat phone has it’s dial a specific number feature much like a mobile phone, don’t lose sight of the fact that a HF effects a general broadcast which will be heard by many stations, and would be a must have for any serious offshore trip I did. I must say that I have no experience on ocean sailing, my comments are based on 35 years as a pilot, and as such I have had a lot of HF experience. After some initial investigation it seems to me that both is the best way to go funding permitting, sat phones have come down in price in recent times one can buy a sat phone for around a A$1000, and a plan that is quite economical, at the moment HF fitted around A6K that’s the sort of indicative quotes I have received recently, I note D&D has a excellent web site with some communication gear. Regards Peter