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Old 03-11-2019, 16:57   #16
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Stoertebeker View Post
I'm new to CF and this is my first post.
I have a Lagoon 450 and currently sail in the Mediterranean Sea. I'm considering using Coppercoat instead of my next antifouling. To be successful, according to the seller in Germany, it is important to adhere to the guidelines. The constant mixing of the copper with the epoxy is very important.
But no one can tell me if it really makes sense to apply a primer before the Coppercoat.

Do you have any experiences?
Do Lagoon catamarans all have a gelcoat?

Thanks in advance !
Good move - we have had Coppercoat on our hull in the Med for 8 seasons now. Frankly I don't understand the people we see every year in the yard sanding their antifouling, then slapping more on only to go through the same thing again in the future. The actual stuff is not complex. It is just a special water-based epoxy resin that slowly over the many years, erodes at about the rate of the copper oxidising and washing away - slowly! (and therefore does not/should not be burnished regularly - all you are doing then is removing the copper oxide that is doing the work).

It's not perfect, but it's very good, and has saved us over that time weeks of work, and thousands in expense.

During those years we have been everywhere from the South of France to North Africa, to Sicily (including Ragusa and Licata where people complain of bad fouling - and I have certainly seen examples of that in the water !!!), Italy, the Adriatic coasts and such places.
For the first several years we just got a bit of slime on the hull, now in some places we get a bit of 'furring', but it just scrubs off.
Last year we picked up some tubeworm. Had to scrape that off, but it was no big deal. This year for the first time, I re-burnished the rudder and keel as a test (so that is the first time in 7 seasons). Later this year I found no furring on those areas at all, and a little bit on the hull (no tube worm anywhere either). So it's somewhere about the time to re-burnish. Might get onto that in the next year or so.

As to application, as others have said - always when there is significant work being done on your boat, be there! I was watching a keel being grit blasted - basically a good job, but there were areas where it faired into the hull that I would have asked to be re-done. Then the plastic shroud was removed, then they went away, then hours went by until the epoxy was applied - outside, on the coast, with a breeze, with the shroud removed ..…

If it was my boat I would have had the epoxy going on within the hour, and I would have kept the shroud there to minimise any chance of salt-laden air getting on that exposed iron surface. Freshly blasted cast iron in a marine environment? Hmm.

Anyway, yes your Lagoon has gelcoat. It is the first layer in the mould before the glass and resin goes on top, and if abraded with something like 80 grit to get a good key, then being two-pack epoxy, the Coppercoat can go straight on. Whether you go for a couple of coats of high-build epoxy first is your call. We did specify epoxy barrier coat first. In theory modern resins are pretty immune to osmosis, but my thought was the Coppercoat is going to be on there for a decade or two, so it's worth the extra.

For details regarding application, check the website.
Coppercoat needs to be applied very thin so the copper stays on the surface. It needs to be kept stirred so the copper stays in suspension.
It needs to be applied in multiple coats we-on-tacky so you get a chemical bond between coats and end up with what is effectively one thick coating.
Then when hard, it needs to be burnished with the burnishing pads they supply (soft so the pad conforms to the rolled texture, and not aggressive so only the top layer of resin is scuffed off, and no copper is removed).

We were a bit naïve back when ours was done, and did not make a point of being there. Every now and again now, I have to touch up little bits that flake off - Guess what - underneath is bright, shiny gelcoat! Obviously if we were there, I would have made sure the hull was properly sanded before application.

The touching up is dead easy however - as is a full application if you are inclined to save yourself some money. If you can get a couple of friends to give you a hand, you could do a hull in a day easily, but make sure you put an extra coat around the waterline - being exposed to air, it tends to oxidise more quickly there.
I wish someone had suggested that to us. Going by ours, I think we will get 15-20 years from the hull, and around 12-15 years from the waterline. An extra coat would have evened that out.

And as to the ones who say it hasn't worked for them? When they put photos up, it just doesn't look right. Our hull when we haul and it's dry, is copper oxide green - theirs is more brown. Not enough copper on the surface, so application or lack of burnishing can only be the cause there.

I hope that helps.
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Old 03-11-2019, 16:59   #17
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Do remember that different areas present very different fouling problems... different organisms and different rates of growth for them. Thus Copper Coat or any other antifouling material can have vastly differing results in different areas of the world, and sometimes the areas can be pretty close together and still have divergent issues.

This alone can be the origin of the contrasting reports of efficacy for CC. And when you add in vagaries of application, well, anecdotal evidence ain't worth much!

Jim
Good advice Jim!
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Old 03-11-2019, 18:11   #18
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Do remember that different areas present very different fouling problems... and when you add in vagaries of application, well, anecdotal evidence ain't worth much!
So in other words, with Coppercoat it's a complete crap shoot .
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Old 03-11-2019, 18:30   #19
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
So in other words, with Coppercoat it's a complete crap shoot .
No, Matt, what it means is that your condemnation of Copper Coat may not be valid in some regions of the world while being spot on in others.

And the "complete crapshoot" might apply just as well to conventional anti fouling products. Location and application are important to them as well... and I think you know this and have commented on it before.

I'm neither a user nor a fan of CC, but I've met enough happy users to believe that it can work well enough to be useful... in the right areas and with good application.

Jim
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Old 03-11-2019, 18:38   #20
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

You just got done saying that anecdotal reviews of Coppercoat's performance are not to be relied upon. If that assumption is true, then the first time user is risking their time and money on a product that may or may not have a successful outcome. Pretty much the definition of a crap shoot, in my book.
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Old 03-11-2019, 19:27   #21
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
No, Matt, what it means is that your condemnation of Copper Coat may not be valid in some regions of the world while being spot on in others.

And the "complete crapshoot" might apply just as well to conventional anti fouling products. Location and application are important to them as well... and I think you know this and have commented on it before.

I'm neither a user nor a fan of CC, but I've met enough happy users to believe that it can work well enough to be useful... in the right areas and with good application.

Jim
Gee Jim,
Unfortunate that some people seem to have a serious attitude problem here. Well, I think the majority of us are just here to try to help fellow cruisers, and the majority of us appreciate your input, along with the other constructive comments here.

Thanks again Jim .
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Old 03-11-2019, 19:36   #22
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by David B View Post
Gee Jim,
Unfortunate that some people seem to have a serious attitude problem here.
What you, Jim and others conveniently fail to note is that I have never said that Coppercoat doesn't work for some users. Quite the opposite in fact. I have stated that the majority of those positive reports seem to come from regions where fouling is not a major concern, like the Pacific Northwest or northern Europe and Great Britain. Has my professional experience with the product in California been negative? Absolutely it has and I'm not shy about telling people about it. But I guess speaking the unvarnished truth is a "bad attitude" to some people. I guess some people don't like hearing things that don't reinforce their opinions or experiences.

Well, guess what? That's too bad.
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Old 03-11-2019, 19:51   #23
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Stoertebeker View Post
I now realize that when Coppercoat is applied, I absolutely have to be present and I can not entrust it to the shipyard employees. There are just too many things I have to keep an eye on, which are responsible for a good result.
Absolutely true! I had Coppercoat applied to my Catalina 470 back in June, and if I had not stayed on top of things I would have had a crap job and miserable results. The yard "lightly scuffed" the CC after the epoxy had cured, and in some areas it was barely touched. I raised hell, and they eventually did it right and sanded to properly expose the copper, at their cost.

I live aboard in a high fouling area, and the bottom is still in fantastic shape. I had a diver take a quick look, and all he did was give it a light wipe. Not long term results, to be sure, but I'm happy so far...

Regards,
David
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Old 03-11-2019, 21:08   #24
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Davidhoy View Post
Absolutely true! I had Coppercoat applied to my Catalina 470 back in June, and if I had not stayed on top of things I would have had a crap job and miserable results. The yard "lightly scuffed" the CC after the epoxy had cured, and in some areas it was barely touched. I raised hell, and they eventually did it right and sanded to properly expose the copper, at their cost.

I live aboard in a high fouling area, and the bottom is still in fantastic shape. I had a diver take a quick look, and all he did was give it a light wipe. Not long term results, to be sure, but I'm happy so far...

Regards,
David
Interesting that you also have a very positive experience in a "high fouling area" David - as with us and many other cruisers I have come across in high fouling areas.

I think you are correct - leave it to the average yard, and the burnishing is the problem. I think that's why we see brown hulls from people who don't get the results they expect from Coppercoat. My take on it is if it isn't a nice oxide green it's either one of the copy products or it hasn't been prepared/finished correctly.

Just wish I had been around to supervise the sanding of our hull prior to application. If you want a job done properly ……..

I assume when you had finished supervising your yard, it looked a bit like this rudder. A lot of nice shiny exposed copper there, but I can personally attest that there is a bit of effort involved to get it to that stage .
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:30   #25
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

I am happy with the result after 2 years, I have done the work myself, scraped and sanded down several layers of old antifouling down to gelcoat, took me about 3 weeks of work, have done it all by myself, then washed down the dust, wiped the hull with isopropanol to degrease and applied 6 layers of copper coat with help from a friend, took one day per hull for painting the 6 layers, then helped him to apply the copper coat on his cat.

We both are happy with the results so far.

You need at least 3 person when painting, one permanently mixing small batches and two permanently painting.
You start on one side at the bow and the other starts on the other side at stern, then you go around 3 times applying thin layers, so everybody paints over the surface of each other and painting differences in thickness are equalized, you continue until no more paint left, usually when finished one side you can continue on the other, it is already dry enough.

Before the last 2 rounds, make short breaks of 15 to 20 minutes to allow the thicker paint to set before continuing.

Protect the hull from any moisture when finished for the next night, even condensation may create ugly drops over night.

After 24h moisture is no problem anymore.

The copper coat needs 96 hours to set and get really hard, allow this time before sanding and watering.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:09   #26
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

Thanks guys for your details on application techniques. Got a question for ya. My 30 foot tri sits on a trailer in San Carlos Mexico. If I CC my hulls is there any problem with the CC being out of the water for months at a time? Do I have to buff it up to reactivate the copper? It’s been too long since inorganic chemistry. Smile
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Old 04-11-2019, 08:01   #27
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Thanks guys for your details on application techniques. Got a question for ya. My 30 foot tri sits on a trailer in San Carlos Mexico. If I CC my hulls is there any problem with the CC being out of the water for months at a time? Do I have to buff it up to reactivate the copper? It’s been too long since inorganic chemistry. Smile
No problem at all, it is the copper oxyde surface that reacts with sea water and is poisonous to the organisms and protects the hull. It also oxydizes in the water, so does not matter.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:19   #28
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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If I CC my hulls is there any problem with the CC being out of the water for months at a time?
COPPERCOAT is a permanent epoxy coating and therefore unlike traditional anti-fouls, is not affected by drying out.

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Do I have to buff it up to reactivate the copper?
Eventually, usually after several years, the surface may benefit from being lightly abraded with a fine grade of "wet and dry" paper or a burnishing pad to expose fresh copper.

Frequently asked questions about Coppercoat anti-fouling epoxy. Why is Coppercoat better than standard marine bottom paint? And much more!
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:44   #29
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Do remember that different areas present very different fouling problems... different organisms and different rates of growth for them. Thus Copper Coat or any other antifouling material can have vastly differing results in different areas of the world, and sometimes the areas can be pretty close together and still have divergent issues.

This alone can be the origin of the contrasting reports of efficacy for CC. And when you add in vagaries of application, well, anecdotal evidence ain't worth much!

Jim
I've come across Coppercoat in many different areas, I'm curious about its effectiveness thus I've made a habit of asking those that have it what they think. As you point out it's very controversial, some love ,some hate it. From the outside it's really hard to know if it's any good.....I'd say opinion is split 50/50 at a guess.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:47   #30
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Re: Lagoon Catamarans: Coppercoat with a primer: Yes or No?

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I've come across Coppercoat in many different areas, I'm curious about its effectiveness thus I've made a habit of asking those that have it what they think. As you point out it's very controversial, some love ,some hate it. From the outside it's really hard to know if it's any good.....I'd say opinion is split 50/50 at a guess.
Hey Dale, when we eventually meet in person you can see how CopperCoat works on a sistership to your "Sukha". I put CopperCoat on my C470 in June, and so far results have been good. Not sure I'd recommend the yard that I hired to apply it though...

-David
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