52: Lagoon 52

[chemist]

Dougdaniel,

Before you buy a boat from Lagoon you should properly read the contract, because you may not be buying from Lagoon driectly but from their dealers. This way Lagoon cannot be sued for any warrenty problems. The dealers get a fair share of the profit, but they are in return responsible for any warranty claims. Good luch seuing Lagoon in the USA.


Freedom52
With respect to the Microcommander, the problems observed by many are not a problem of the Mathers MicroCommander, which has been around for over 15 years and is very reliable, but a problem of inpropper installation. It turns out that if the Actuator is not properly calibrated so that it fully engages the gear 100% in reverse and forward, that after some time, due to wear and tear, the gear wil not engage anymore. This is even more true when gears are used having cones and clutches such as the saildrive SD-50. A not fully engaged gear may work when the drive is new, but after some time the cones will slip and not engage anymore. This is a well known problem of the SD-50 saildrive. One should therefore after some time re-adjust the push-pull cables of the shift lever to make sure that the gears fully engage. The Mathers Microcommander has nothing to do with this. If you blame some technology then make sure you know the details.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by chemist

Dougdaniel,

Before you buy a boat from Lagoon you should properly read the contract, because you may not be buying from Lagoon driectly but from their dealers. This way Lagoon cannot be sued for any warrenty problems. The dealers get a fair share of the profit, but they are in return responsible for any warranty claims. Good luch seuing Lagoon in the USA.

First of all, as far as I know , buying directly a boat from Lagoon is not an option. Maybe some big charter companies, if there is any, ordering 10-15 boats in one shot are eligeable for this..Yes, the dealers are liable for any claim and in one specific case (not Lagoon) I know that the dealer in one country went bankrupt as a result of court case due to quality problems of the boat. That's probably why they don't sell directly. You say "the dealers get a fair share of the profit" but at least for Europe they only get around 15 % of commission and most of it is being given as a discount to the customer. So, if they are lucky, they can get 3 or 4% of commission. They carry all the risk in turn, have to deal with all the problems and most of the time they are squizzed between the customer and the factory. Big dealers for important countries like USA have more leverage on the factory, others have no chance at all..
(By the way, I am not a dealer of any brand, neither I do have such an intention..)

On the other hand, the factory can divert all the quality issues to a "poor" dealer for a while, but this is not sustainable. Lagoon has been the fastest growing Business within Beneteau group of companies but started losing money since 2011/12. Hope they treat their customers better and remain in the Business.

Cheers

Yeloya

[PaulinOz]

"I almost hit the dock and other boats a few times when my Stbd tranny would not engage. It later burned out the cone clutch (replaced last week at 400 hrs)."

Is not the the inability to engage a gear a symptom of the Cone Clutch issue, that was how it first manifested itself on my boat. I could not engage reverse it was like a false neutral on a Motor Cycle.

[dougdaniel]

Originally Posted by yeloya

First of all, as far as I know , buying directly a boat from Lagoon is not an option. Maybe some big charter companies, if there is any, ordering 10-15 boats in one shot are eligeable for this..Yes, the dealers are liable for any claim and in one specific case (not Lagoon) I know that the dealer in one country went bankrupt as a result of court case due to quality problems of the boat. That's probably why they don't sell directly. You say "the dealers get a fair share of the profit" but at least for Europe they only get around 15 % of commission and most of it is being given as a discount to the customer. So, if they are lucky, they can get 3 or 4% of commission. They carry all the risk in turn, have to deal with all the problems and most of the time they are squizzed between the customer and the factory. Big dealers for important countries like USA have more leverage on the factory, others have no chance at all..
(By the way, I am not a dealer of any brand, neither I do have such an intention..)

On the other hand, the factory can divert all the quality issues to a "poor" dealer for a while, but this is not sustainable. Lagoon has been the fastest growing Business within Beneteau group of companies but started losing money since 2011/12. Hope they treat their customers better and remain in the Business.

Cheers

Yeloya

Interesting argument.

I suggest suing in the States because I don't know anything about the law in some unnamed country. I do know that US courts tend to be consumer friendly.

I'm sure that you're aware that buying a car directly from the manufacturer (except Tesla) is not an option for a consumer in the US, yet the car manufacturers are regularly sued by consumers. US consumers sue foreign car manufacturers as well. There are two reasons for this.

One reason is the principle of agency. This principle, regardless of the contract (to include a provision to not sue the manufacturer) transfers the liability to the manufacturer because the dealer is the legal agent of the maker. That's one of the reasons that product liability suits are against the maker and not the dealer.

Another is the legal principle called 'deep pockets.' In a nutshell, deep pockets means that he who has the money, pays. Manufacturers tend to have more money than their dealers.

Of course the boat dealers are agents of the boat manufacturer. I would think that in the US winning a suit against a dealer for a flaw in manufacturing would be extremely hard.

While I doubt that a competent lawyer would be willing to take a contingency case against a dealer for a flaw in manufacture or breach of warrantee, IMHO suing a dealer would be counterproductive. The last thing we would want to do is to put a dealer out of business. We don't want to put Lagoon out of business. We want them to fix the problems and provide adequate customer support.

Since Beneteau owns Lagoon, Lagoon is an agent of Beneteau.

The problem is with Beneteau who tells Lagoon how to conduct business. So the problem is not with Lagoon and certainly not with the dealers. Additionally a class action suit forces Beneteau to at least improve their support to Lagoon owners.

Certainly the American subsidiaries of BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Bombardier, Airbus, Volvo, etc. have all had to pay settlements. I'm inclined to believe that Beneteau USA would also comply with a court order rather than face attachment.

As an example of the power of class action suits: Apple was successfully sued for not having replaceable batteries in an early model of iPod. Certainly the list of deficiencies is long enough to justify a suit against Beneteau.

Since lawyers can work on contingency in the US and class-action suits are also part of the American legal system, a class action suit against Beneteau quite possibly could be conducted without any financial commitment or risk to the plaintiff class.

On the other hand, maybe these problems reported are not as serious as they seem from afar and I would not be worth trying to get Lagoon to improve their owner support.

Good luck whatever decision you take.

[hefestus]

Originally Posted by dougdaniel

If I had a million euro yacht that has had the myriad failures I have read about in this forum, I would be in contact with every other owner I could locate and be gathering the evidence.

Lighting and clutch myriad failures!? Are you serious? It's totally irrelevant how much you pay for the boat, there will always be more than few things to debug on brand new boat.
In fact as more you pay more trouble you get (bigger, more complicated ...). That is a case with any boat builder.

Btw the clutch on SD-50 Yanmar is problem when installed with other brands too.

Freedom52 sorry to hear for all this troubles. Have in mind that new boat is not new car, plug a key and drive trouble free for next three years. With boats is reverse. First three years you are all; plumber, electrician, diesel mechanic ... nearly full time, and after few years and all sorted out you switch to part time plumber, electrician ...

My advice press your dealer, he is responsible.

[Freedom52]

While I appreciate the well wishes and encouragement to continue to "debug" my new 52, I have to also reply to say that redesigning and rebuilding a LEMON is a horse of a different color. It is far beyond the debugging stage when systems are so poorly designed that replacing parts is not enough.

Take the case of the small, made in China, relay that takes 230v AC power from the 17.5KWa generator on startup to open a low amp 12V circuit to start the raw water primer pump. This relay surely fails after a certain number of high voltage start up cycles and then either causes the pump to fail to come on (rendering the Gen unusable) or in the last case sends high voltage to the pump circuit, located near fuel, and melts the wires and pump. What does Lagoon say after seeing photos of the melted pump,,,"looks like the impeller ran dry!"

How about the Salon AC. Two FAU's above the ceiling, producing cold air and water from the humid air. Where dos that water go? Through the fake leather ceiling and onto the floor. While the cabin fan units drain into the bilge, these two have no where to send the water. How does one debug that? I presume by finishing the boat with proper drain hoses to the bilge.

My point is that the buyer should BEWARE. No dealer has the ability to stand behind the myriad of design and execution flaws on this new line of boat coming from Lagoon; and it portends major problems for any buyer of any new Lagoon. Stuck between a manufacturer that seems to not really care or be empowered to provide assistance as needed and dealers who can't follow you around with technicians and parts you are truly on your own.

Why would I write this on a nice holiday morning? Good question. After several weeks of non-stop repairs and maintenance, including moving a Marine Engineer on board for ft work, I decided to take a break yesterday and rest. Sure enough, as soon as I started the AC and laid down to rest, the salon ceiling opened up with pouring water from the AC units. Another day on the Lagoon 52 and another system failure. Ceiling panels off again, buckets and towels deployed and a once happy wife telling me again what an idiot I was for buying a Lagoon catamaran. Their Marketing department finds folks like us that want to sail and relax on a luxury sailing cat, but their production department delivers crap. I just hope I can find another sucker like me to buy this LEMON once it works without failures long enough to survive a buyer's sea trial.

[careka]

Well, when they do get the problems (all of them ) fixed, you will have a boat better then the new once. hope it all works out in the end.

[MehmetCan]

Long story short, can't expect German engineering from a French boat!

[dirkdig]

This has been going on for years from Lagoon.
Dont hold your breath for help.

[Freedom52]

Originally Posted by MehmetCan

Long story short, can't expect German engineering from a French boat!

I hope that Airbus has no French engineering or I'll have to start flying on Boeing only. Just kidding my French friends . Personally, as a person with many interests, including aviation and motor sports, I am coming to the painful realization that this is an industry-wide problem; and therefore we consumers are partially responsible. I suppose that drew me to this blog,,,the only one I contribute to personally. I think their must be some masochistic tendency to have these basic problems and the ego and skills ( or just plain money) to deal with them. "Pleasure Boating": must refer to a day on someone else's boat.

Please let me know if anyone has a lead on a buyer for a "better than new" 2013 Lagoon 52. My dealer wants another 10% to list it. Any tips on how to list for sale by owner?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by MehmetCan

Long story short, can't expect German engineering from a French boat!

Yeah right! Just got rid of my LAST German car.....$4000+ in 18 months to keep it running! Instrument console blank on startup - $1600, AC evaporator leak - $1200, HVAC fan will only run on low - $700, loose wiring connectors under dash - $400, an engine running rough at cold temps problem they never could find ("must test on same ignition cycle") - several hours of labor, etc., etc.

[matauri500]

We have a Lagoon 500 and have experienced exactly the same problems with the clutch system using the Micro Commander and the SD 50 cone clutch on the stb side. The last failure to engage was when pulling off the fuel dock in Marsh Harbor in high winds. It was nearly a catastrophe. Fortunately the clutch engaged in reverse for a few minutes and we were able to quickly reverse out of the situation. Nevertheless very unsettling for everyone.
The cone clutch is now being replaced. We found that the Micro commander system was set at 85% and appears that it was not fully engaging the clutch. We are resetting the system to insure full re engagement in the hope that this clutch job lasts more than the 50 hours since the last repair. The SD 50 cone clutch is crap but fairly easy to service. Good thing too as it needs a lot of service, at least up to now.
I general I have found only a few faults with the Lagoon 500 that had only 250 hours on it when we bought it last year. All the main components have operated well although there have been and in some cases remain a few exceptions to that. There is some crummy design, some cheap parties and some undersized equipment.
Nevertheless for the price we got one hell of a nice used boat which over the next couple of trips should have all the bugs worked out to my satisfaction. After that the fix-it issues will never go away. They are just a part of owning a boat. The more complicated one you buy the more fit-it's you are going to have
I buy used and let someone else take the 30 to 35% depreciation hit. I can fix and upgrade a lot of stuff for the difference in price.
We gave made an offer on a used 52 last week but after reading these recent posts maybe I will give them a couple of years to sort out the problems. My broker is going to hate hearing this but he is always in Ft Lauderdale when something goes wrong down island and is not much help in the engine room.
Doug
Matauri500

[pbr]

I for one have never been a fan of the vertical window design, while it reduces radiant heat, it is less aerodynamic and in my opinion just plan ugly. Fly bridges are ok for charter day sails, but not practical for performance offshore cruising. Lots of extra weight and wind resistance, while raising the vertical center of gravity and overall cost. For real cruising you would need to enclose it which would magnify the above stated negatives.

The rig design has drawbacks as well. Rig position is all about balance and I think this one is too extreme and smacks of more marketing and charter appeal than a real performance and handling improvement. While big jibs are easy to roll in and out, once cracked off they are very inefficient when it comes to twist and sail shape control. You can have self tacking no matter where the mast is located, but unless the track goes rail to rail or you have a Hoyt boom or Camber Spar, you have no twist control on any point of sail wider than upwind without setting some kind of barber hauler to the rail.

Larger mains help the boat tack more efficiently since they will sail through the tack longer before luffing, where with the large jib you have to time it just right if releasing and trimming sheets. Generally speaking rigs with larger mains will reach better, particularly with a vang, since you have much better twist and sail shape control than a jib or genoa at wider angles.

Also with a larger main, usually you have the option of sailing under main or reefed main alone, while still being able to tack the boat with good balance. Large mainsails also reef with better resultant sail shape, than partially furling large jibs.

The argument for higher aspect ratio in terms of efficiency is valid but in a boat it raises the center of gravity, which is an issue aircraft don't have to worry so much about. As a wise man once said, "performance in cruising boat is VMG relative to energy expended by the crew". Real "easy" performance comes with sails that automatically have good twist and shape control no matter what point of sail, without having to adjust travelers, or set and move barber haulers. Just trim the sheets and go!

[dougdaniel]

@pbr,

I agree that vertical windows are not as pretty as slanted one. In all other areas, I disagree. But we can still be friends.

[pbr]

No problem, my opinions are based on real world results and comparisons having been involved in the design, development and production of hundreds of cruising sailboats, while you can draw some parallels to aircraft design, soft sails, twist control, and ease of handling in a moderate performance cruising sailboat, is a different world completely.