52: Lagoon 52

[hefestus]

Originally Posted by MehmetCan

1-2 knots faster means 24-48 miles more per day, which also means cutting down at least a day on a week long passage, not bad.

However, since these are practically floating islands, I wouldn't mind "being on the road" for an extra day or two but I would definitely mind about upwind angle and that makes better sailing for me. JMHO of course...

So what's a hurry on passage? 20-40 nm doesn't count that much when cruising. Up wind on long passages? Going fast from A to B is more for power planing boats and racers than concern with cruisers. Btw most of the boats don't spend even 5% of time on passage thou 80% are most of the time stationary (anchor, marinas ...)

In my experience, and some prof. skippers light cats are quite unconformable 4 long passages, motion, nose, stress ... I charter 4 two weeks Outremer 49 in Aegean. With strong Meltemi wind (6-8) and chop sea, it's very uncomfortable and extremely noisy. Thou it's great sailing machine it's poor cruising and live-aboard cat.

As 4 upwind = daggerboards. Well another story

Believe me for long passages you will wish to have heavier, slower and more conformable cat than semi racing machine.

I believe that Lagoon 52 is good compromise for comfort/speed as I'v been told from the owner of the charter company who bought few for his fleet. Haven't sail in one but I sail old Privilege 482 and I'ts quite good performance, very stable and comfortable.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by hefestus

So what's a hurry on passage? 20-40 nm doesn't count that much when cruising.Going fast from A to B is more for power planing boats and racers than concern with cruisers. Btw most of the boats don't spend even 5% of time on passage thou 80% are most of the time stationary (anchor, marinas ...)

In my experience, and some prof. skippers light cats are quite unconformable 4 long passages, motion, nose, stress ... I charter 4 two weeks Outremer 49 in Aegean. With strong Meltemi wind (6-8) and chop sea, it's very uncomfortable and extremely noisy. Thou it's great sailing machine it's poor cruising and live-aboard cat.

As 4 upwind = daggerboards. Well another story

Believe me for long passages you will wish to have heavier, slower and more conformable cat than semi racing machine.

I believe that Lagoon 52 is good compromise for comfort/speed as I'v been told from the owner of the charter company who bought few for his fleet. Haven't sail in one but I sail old Privilege 482 and I'ts quite good performance, very stable and comfortable.

Well I did the Atlantic passage twice and the entire Med passage 3 times all with a cat. (FP Orana 44 ft) I agree that the speed in long passage comes after comfort. The boat shouldd be able to give a speed of min 55 % of true wind speed both upwind and down wind. I am happy with a 185-190 nm /day in a relaxing mode (glass of wine on the table, trimming twice a day..) and 205/210 nm/ay when streched. Can L 52 deliver this ? Downwind probably yes. Upwind I'd doubted very much..
The speed does not mean only arriving couple of days earlier, but being able to escape from the bad weather or finding better wind earlier. That gives you much more flexibility.
The real problem with new generation Lagoons is not onlyt being heavy and relatively slow, it is the high windage.This creates a threefold problem;
-difficulty in manoeuvring in tight waters when it blows,
-reduced up wind capability and excessive leeway..
-a real threat when the wind will get over 45-50 kts. The boat with such windage would make 9-10 knots running with bare poles.. Can you imagine what kind of drag you will need to pull to slow down and control the boat ??

I am not advocating the other extreme; Outremer 49 has been discontinued exactly for the reasons you mentioned. Above all, her pay load was to little. Fast boat, but the moment you start loading with the necessicity of long passages (safety gear, food, water, genset, spare parts, A/C and a lot of beer and wine ) she becomes an ordinary boat.

In other words, Outremer 52 when kept light would be some 30 % faster than Lagoon 52 and about 10-15 % faster than Catana 50. If you load all of them with 3 tons, Catana will be at least as fast as Outremer and L 52 would lose very little from its original speed..

Cheers

Yeloya

[hefestus]

Originally Posted by yeloya

The speed does not mean only arriving couple of days earlier, but being able to escape from the bad weather or finding better wind earlier. That gives you much more flexibility.

Well maybe.

That's gunboat point! Thou they can easily cover 280-400 nm daily, and still not convinced that this is enough to run away from bad weather on crossings and long passages. I don't think that 20-40 + nm a day is big advantage if need to run form bad weather.


I agree with rest, I cant judge L52 since I haven't try it. Now just two owners and they love it, (all owners love their boats, sure when they spent nearly 1m for a boat). Friend of mine prof skipper in Greece said that is much faster than older 500 an 560s, and quite comfortable.

Well, every boat is sort of trade off. You have low windage than you don't have this cool flybridge, and so on ... . If you want good upwind perf. than you need daggerboards, if you get one better don't forget to rise them ...

On the other hand Lagoon sells lot of boats. That should mean a lot. That's why they can hire VPLP & NAUTA top names.

[MehmetCan]

I could not agree more.

...however, when it comes to GB's, that's my soft spot!!!

[Freedom52]

Hi folks, L52 owner here with 3,500nm in the Caribbean. Every single day something on this boat breaks or fails. There is no reasonable factory or dealer support and so the owner, in this case me, is encouraged by the factory to become Chief Engineer. Electrical systems on this new design include custom relays in at least five separate locations to distribute power and instruction to the lighting. I have replaced most of them and the lighting still does not work properly. The drive by wire Micro Commander system is in-maintainable unless you or a tech wish to become the local experts AND you have pre ordered Lagoon parts and relays. Ours blew out a cone clutch in 250 hrs. The Salon door is installed as if on a cheap mobile home, with self tapping screws bent into fiberglass holes. The Warranty program is sort of a money spending prevention department at Lagoon, and when they send parts they are more often then not not the ones requested. If you're not near a dealer, you are somewhere in "the Sahara desert" and subject to "all the variables of a boat moving on the sea." That's there explanation but somehow does not explain major building flaws.

Nice new design, yes. Sails well, when working, yes. Affordable or reasonable to maintain, not a chance. This boat is a Lemon, and I'd stay away. So much cost engineering that the transom step had to be reinforced to keep the swim ladder from pulling off. Parts that look like stainless steel are just plastic, and don't last. No grab rails for safety, sharp corners everywhere.

Maybe a great rental boat, but owning one is a nightmare. I would never buy a Lagoon product again. That just don't understand customer service at all, and I don't think they care to understand English either. Maybe a good boat to have in France

[downunder]

Freedom,

there was another L52 owner in the Med that had replaced a L44 with A L52 and had some very similar major issues with the electrical system.

Good luck.

[jostalli]

Wow. Freedom just obliterated the Lagoon 52 in one post. Lagoon better send their PR folks over here to try and control the situation.

I read a similar report on the Yahoo Lagoon group.

[yeloya]

Very strange...
Lagoon is the number 1 producer of catamaran in volume since quite a while. They had a nice balance between speed and comfort until the launch of 440. The legendary 57 was probably the best they ever built. Then, they shifted towards on comfort/volume side with 450, 560 and 620 and compromising the sailing performance. These boats, all of them with huge fly bridges were criticised for being sluggish under sail, nevertheless, commercialy they have been very succesful.
Then came 52 and 39.. Mast aft, in the middle of the saloon, huge fore sail, very short boom and huge mast heights...
Almost everybody agrees now that L 52 doesn't sail well. (seems that L 39 sails much better)
I have heard many customer complaints about L 52, mostly electrical but also a few gear box issues.
It's hard to believe that a market leader could make such big mistakes in one shot. If on top the customer service works that way, I don't know what to say..

Cheers,

Yeloya

[MehmetCan]

Too many complicated parts and only one or two prototypes -if lucky. That's the main reason for all the problems that occur for almost all new designs in sailing. However, if you're ready to pay for all the proper R&D costs at the purchase, then a custom built one or something in the region of a H&R, Swan or Oyster comes in the picture.

Delamination was a huge issue for Catana, slamming for Outremer and of course, electrical and mechanical issues with Lagoon and Fountaine Pajot. It seems like the only logical solution is to find a proven design, buy it new and then use it as a template while changing every single part for a properly quality one. And within 5 years, you'll have a 5 year old hull with proven working systems on board!!!

Maybe a 25 ft. day-sailer is better... At least with less problems...

[dougdaniel]

Having been an engineering manager for many years, I can sympathize with Lagoon, not for their poor service but the many problems with the first production boats.

When a company sells at most a few hundred boats of any given model, they just cannot afford to put the engineering and testing hours into development that a company who sells a few million units can. To me, the results are to be expected.

Lagoon put many innovations into the 39 and especially the 52. Innovation = change = risk. Minimize risk by spending more on engineering and testing. Spending more increases price. Increasing price reduces sales. That's why I would expect lots of problems with the new models.

Lagoon also uses bottom-of-the-line Raymarine electronics. Even their mature products fail regularly. Lagoon chose to install the latest, bleeding edge systems that, based on their specifications, are neither modular nor interoperable with industry standard systems. Having a computer controlled lighting system seems a bit crazy. What's wrong with a light switch?

Let's not forget that a Lagoon 52 is at least 5 times as complex as a Volkswagen Passat and was designed and tested with 0.01% of the R&D budget.

The problem is that those of us who like cruising sailboats, also love gadgets. Adding gadgets sells yachts. Adding gadgets reduces reliability.

Perhaps Lagoon should be taken to task for putting out a boat that has useless crap on it, inferior quality, poor ergonomics and a ridiculously complex electronics system. But as Pogo once said, "I have met the enemy and he is us."

It seems to me that the smart move would be one of the last L440s because Lagoon would have had years to correct the problems the owners have reported or the previous owners would have had to correct them.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by MehmetCan

.

Delamination was a huge issue for Catana, slamming for Outremer and of course, electrical and mechanical issues with Lagoon and Fountaine Pajot.

Slamming Outremer (particularly 49), yes, but never heard any Catana with delamination problem, neither specific electrical/mechanical issues with FP or Lagoon. I am sure some have had it but to the extend it appears to be on L 52.

Dougdaniel,

Sorry but disagree..
If it will take couple of years for a manufacturer to settle the problems when a new model is launched, nobody would buy any boat until the a new model "matures"..
I've seen an Orana #1 which was a total disaster, almost a wreck.. After hull # 5 or so they fixed most of the problems, except the blistering issues.. I have also a Helia # 1 here. It was in very good shape the first day and after 1 year of charter it still is. FP must have made a huge step forward, I don't know how.

Lagoon is a reputable company and the largest manufacturer. They should have the biggest resources (R&D, skill of people, after sales, etc) compared to other manufacturers. What people would expect is that at least that they should keep their level in every aspect included but not limited to customer service. I think that's the point..
Cheers
Yeloya

[dougdaniel]

Hi Yeloya,

I certainly sympathize.

Surely you'll agree that even the world's largest yacht manufacturer has to have a small R&D budget if they plan to only sell a few hundred boats of a particular model. If they sold a total of 200 L52s and had a 20,000,000 euro R&D budget, the R&D cost per boat would be 100,000 euros. A twenty million R&D budget for something as complex as a '52 is a tiny budget. A hundred thousand euro per boat R&D cost is a big chunk out of the price of a boat.

I conclude from this back-of-the-envelope calculation that I would not expect Lagoon 52 hull number 1 to be as fault-free as the first car of a new model year that rolls off the assembly line. Nothing more.

I believe that a manufacturer who plans to sell a few hundred units cannot spend as money on R&D as a manufacturer who plans to sell a few million units.

Perhaps you disagree -- no hard feelings.

I DO NOT think that this economy of scale argument explains the shoddy workmanship, substandard materials, or poor electrical design. It certainly does not justify their poor customer support. IMHO I suspect that their profit suffers because of this poor customer support.

Please believe me that I am not taking Lagoon side on this nor do I think the failure rate that you and others are suffering is in any way justified. OK?

[Freedom52]

Greetings from Blue Lagoon, St. Vincent,

I've enjoyed reading the responses to my post. I'm here today working on my lighting system because I found a tech who is willing to spend the weekend with me to figure out how to program the soft and hard switched that control all interior and exterior lighting. It's ironic that the master touch pad is locked so an Owner cannot "screw it up", as I was told when purchasing,,,but now I am told the key and instructed to reprogram it, change any defective slave relays and have a nice day. Seriously? It's like programming an Atari in 1982 but in the dark. I attached a picture of my salon ceiling today with panels removed.

I would like to comment on the customer service again and the thought that later models "learn" from early ones. This is not true. Here's an example spanning multiple models,,,the Gen raw water priming pump on the L52 was installed conveniently behind the Gen, a few feet above the water line. So naturally we burned through impellers as the pump tried to suck air. We moved the pump below the water line, next to the seacock to fix the problem. Turns out the factory knows very well that this "should" be done but Customer Service cannot tell the factory what to do,,,,they just send parts.


It also appears that Lagoon hides similar issues found on multiple boats. Example: the Micro Commander servo system for the engine and transmissions. Seems multiple boats are having issues. I almost hit the dock and other boats a few times when my Stbd tranny would not engage. It later burned out the cone clutch (replaced last week at 400 hrs). I was in touch with another skipper who had similar problems,,,,but Lagoon seemed dumbfounded when I said I had problems and they would "check with the manufacturer ZF and get back to me (2 weeks ago).

My dealer, based in Los Angeles but French, comes on board to look at things and instantly calls this person or that person directly, at home or after hours, speaking in French and gets answers. Me? I don't even get replies to my emails. Without his "access codes" there are no answers coming.

So, if Lagoon wants to improve they would be keenly interested in my boat's issues in the past nine months in the Caribbean, right? Well they are not the slightest bit interested and there's your answer about the "improvement program."

I think cost engineering is the issue, not R&D. It does not take a lot of R&D to make a new cat these days. Just a new mold and then fill it properly with quality parts. It's mostly off the shelf stuff and the interior (yuck) is CAD/CAM and auto shop, like a jig saw puzzle. And it's all plastic too for gosh sakes. It's not like you need a craftsman to polish it or join. Oh, that reminds me, the mold for the deck has an issue with two low spots near the aft which puddle. So my optional teak deck (plywood pre fab) is turning black and it doesn't drain. So far Lagoon is denying that warranty claim which is BS and probably relates to the fact that if they pay for my fix they have to pay for others too. Really, a deck that puddles on a 2013 Cat that cost over €1M?

[smj]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Slamming Outremer (particularly 49), yes, but never heard any Catana with delamination problem, neither specific electrical/mechanical issues with FP or Lagoon. I am sure some have had it but to the extend it appears to be on L 52.

Dougdaniel,

Sorry but disagree..
If it will take couple of years for a manufacturer to settle the problems when a new model is launched, nobody would buy any boat until the a new model "matures"..
I've seen an Orana #1 which was a total disaster, almost a wreck.. After hull # 5 or so they fixed most of the problems, except the blistering issues.. I have also a Helia # 1 here. It was in very good shape the first day and after 1 year of charter it still is. FP must have made a huge step forward, I don't know how.

Lagoon is a reputable company and the largest manufacturer. They should have the biggest resources (R&D, skill of people, after sales, etc) compared to other manufacturers. What people would expect is that at least that they should keep their level in every aspect included but not limited to customer service. I think that's the point..
Cheers
Yeloya

Yes there were some delam problems with Catanas.

[dougdaniel]

Originally Posted by Freedom52

Greetings from Blue Lagoon, St. Vincent,

I've enjoyed reading the responses to my post. I'm here today working on my lighting system because I found a tech who is willing to spend the weekend with me to figure out how to program the soft and hard switched that control all interior and exterior lighting. It's ironic that the master touch pad is locked so an Owner cannot "screw it up", as I was told when purchasing,,,but now I am told the key and instructed to reprogram it, change any defective slave relays and have a nice day. Seriously? It's like programming an Atari in 1982 but in the dark. I attached a picture of my salon ceiling today with panels removed.

I would like to comment on the customer service again and the thought that later models "learn" from early ones. This is not true. Here's an example spanning multiple models,,,the Gen raw water priming pump on the L52 was installed conveniently behind the Gen, a few feet above the water line. So naturally we burned through impellers as the pump tried to suck air. We moved the pump below the water line, next to the seacock to fix the problem. Turns out the factory knows very well that this "should" be done but Customer Service cannot tell the factory what to do,,,,they just send parts.


It also appears that Lagoon hides similar issues found on multiple boats. Example: the Micro Commander servo system for the engine and transmissions. Seems multiple boats are having issues. I almost hit the dock and other boats a few times when my Stbd tranny would not engage. It later burned out the cone clutch (replaced last week at 400 hrs). I was in touch with another skipper who had similar problems,,,,but Lagoon seemed dumbfounded when I said I had problems and they would "check with the manufacturer ZF and get back to me (2 weeks ago).

My dealer, based in Los Angeles but French, comes on board to look at things and instantly calls this person or that person directly, at home or after hours, speaking in French and gets answers. Me? I don't even get replies to my emails. Without his "access codes" there are no answers coming.

So, if Lagoon wants to improve they would be keenly interested in my boat's issues in the past nine months in the Caribbean, right? Well they are not the slightest bit interested and there's your answer about the "improvement program."

I think cost engineering is the issue, not R&D. It does not take a lot of R&D to make a new cat these days. Just a new mold and then fill it properly with quality parts. It's mostly off the shelf stuff and the interior (yuck) is CAD/CAM and auto shop, like a jig saw puzzle. And it's all plastic too for gosh sakes. It's not like you need a craftsman to polish it or join. Oh, that reminds me, the mold for the deck has an issue with two low spots near the aft which puddle. So my optional teak deck (plywood pre fab) is turning black and it doesn't drain. So far Lagoon is denying that warranty claim which is BS and probably relates to the fact that if they pay for my fix they have to pay for others too. Really, a deck that puddles on a 2013 Cat that cost over €1M?

First, let me say that I am not a Lagoon schill.

Putting aside the issue of what VPLP and Nauta Design charge or whether a new design should be flawless, it seems to me that there is justification for a class action suit.

Even though Lagoon is a French company, they do business and have dealers in the US. That certainly is grounds for a suit to be filed in the US. Beyond question Lagoon (or Beneteau) would lose. After all, almost anything that goes wrong on a yacht is a safety issue, not to mention the breach of contract issues when the boat is not delivered to spec or when the warrantee is not honored.

When you win, Beneteau may decide not to pay. No problem, every Beneteau boat delivered to the US can be attached and auctioned off until the settlement is satisfied. This has certainly happened before. Of course there are the assets of Beneteau USA.

If I had a million euro yacht that has had the myriad failures I have read about in this forum, I would be in contact with every other owner I could locate and be gathering the evidence.

I would not be surprised if a letter from a lawyer would have Lagoon suddenly answering the phone.

I am very curious why Lagoon owners seem to take this abuse sitting down. I guess they are just a bunch of nice guys.