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Old 26-12-2006, 13:24   #1
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Lagoon 500 - Will There Be an Electric Motor ?

I hope they come out with a electric motor version like the 42ft hybrid.
Has anyone any info on this? Inside info etc?
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Old 19-10-2008, 13:50   #2
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Or has any one looked into retrofitting?

I am very interested in the hybrid boat systems. it seems like such a good idea to have instant access to power, without the need for 5 minutes ventilation. I know the 500 is much larger and Lagoon was trying to keep the voltage and amperages low, but has anyone looked into retrofitting a hybrid system into one of these boats?
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Old 19-10-2008, 14:08   #3
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I went aboard the Lagoon 500 at the boat show">Annapolis Boat show. It was big inside, with more than adequate air conditioning, a washer and dryer, dishwasher, oven and other questionable luxuries. Unfortunately, its sailing abilities are questionable at best. I think the question that needs to be asked is if there is a hybrid system with enough horsepower for a 50 foot catamaran? The Catana 50 at the show had two Volvo 72 horsepower engines. A 72 horsepower DC motor is a pretty darn big motor. I cant imagine getting by on significantly less horsepower for a boat of that size...especially if you need to get to weather against a strong headwind on a boat with that much windage that does not sail to weather very well at all.

We have had some pretty good discussions on hybrid systems that you may want to a search for.
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Old 19-10-2008, 16:23   #4
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Based on what I was told at the Annapolis show David Tether's new company has a contract to supply electric drives for the 500.
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Old 19-10-2008, 21:33   #5
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1st one was launched on September 10th per News Lagoon 500 Launch
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Old 19-10-2008, 21:38   #6
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I really hope that they "perfect" the electric engine by the time I'm ready to purchase my boat. I would really like to either eliminate or severely minimize my need to fossil fuels. I would like to have several redundant sources to keep the battery bank fully charged without using one drop of petrol/diesel. I'd even be happy to dismiss having a propane stove and just use electric stove top if I really want to get fully into it.

Anyway, that's a wish list that I hope does happen with my buying time frame.
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Old 20-10-2008, 02:20   #7
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What some professionals are saying about electric drives in boats:
Dealer Outlook Blog Archive Could an electric boat line be hot in the future?
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Old 20-10-2008, 02:35   #8
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Yah, it is sad that most people didn't even know that the battery or electric car was available long before the combustion engine. Most people also don't know that the big petrol companies own most if not all of the patents involving battery technology and electric engines. But, sine they don't need their precious black gold, they quickly squashed that technology post haste.

Thankfully, there is enough pressure now for them to release some of the technology to appease the people. In real terms, we should be light years ahead by now with pure and free energy. But, they don't make "them" money, so no go..

But that is an entirely new rant and thread!! My .0000000000002 cents..
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Old 20-10-2008, 03:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videorov View Post
I hope they come out with a electric motor version like the 42ft hybrid.
Has anyone any info on this? Inside info etc?
The Hybrid Lagoon 500 has been in the water for 2 months and seems to be working out ok. 8.5 knots full speed with 2 x 16 Kw motors made by bluwav in the states
Dave Thether has done the development and you can find info on his site.
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 20-10-2008, 09:32   #10
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Originally Posted by shadow View Post
Yah, it is sad that most people didn't even know that the battery or electric car was available long before the combustion engine. Most people also don't know that the big petrol companies own most if not all of the patents involving battery technology and electric engines. But, sine they don't need their precious black gold, they quickly squashed that technology post haste.

Thankfully, there is enough pressure now for them to release some of the technology to appease the people. In real terms, we should be light years ahead by now with pure and free energy. But, they don't make "them" money, so no go..

But that is an entirely new rant and thread!! My .0000000000002 cents..
If I can speak up for Gideon, his company has developed a "Green Motion" hybrid drive. I'm sure his company is not owned by Exxon or whoever.
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Old 20-10-2008, 09:44   #11
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another point of view

Quote:
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.....Thankfully, there is enough pressure now for them to release some of the technology to appease the people. In real terms, we should be light years ahead by now with pure and free energy. But, they don't make "them" money, so no go..
Yes, new technology is exciting, especially electric engines during an energy crunch. However, almost all Cats sold are used in the tropics... Tropics mean thunderstorms and lightning. Gord just recently posted data in another thread that shows that catamarans are twice as likely to be struck than a monohull. Hell, I've already been hit once.

In my opinion, until fullproof lightning protection is developed which protects critical motor drive electrical components, these are all doomed for failure. One lightning hit removes your ability to motor, not to mention what repair costs would be... should the boat survive the storm without engines.

Rather than post specs of drive systems, I'd like to see schematics of their lightning protection systems. To my knowledge, to date... no one has come up with a fullproof method to protect a boat's electrical system from a lightning strike, if they did, I'd already own one..
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Old 20-10-2008, 11:33   #12
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No economic or enviromental sense in hybrids

I don't see the sense of the electric Lagoon 500,

1.) having 2 diesel engines anyway.
2.) add 2 generators
3.) add several hundreg kgs. of batteries that need to be exchanged in 5 years.
4.) Using fixed props for added drag
5.) Only being able to charge with 12V x 200 A as maximum for short periods, as charge current will drop as battery voltage increases
6.) having lots of sensitive and critical electronics.

How is this going to add up?

The efficiency gain in the drive train will be minimum, instead you complicate the boat to an extent that will leave you without support in most places in the world.

The already overweight boat gets even heavier and slower, your maintenance requirements have not dropped, in fact gone up a bit.


Why not just take normal diesels, add whatever electrical generation power on to these like with the new Yanmar systems, add an extra generator or a larger one on the front end if you want more electrical power for a minimum weight increase.

And get a boat that can sail in low winds.

I fail to see any advantage in hybrids unless you can run them for long periods, like as the primary propulsion systems on motor vessels, there the space savings and marginal efficiency increases can pay off in the long term if you run them for long periods.

How much fuel will a replacement set of batteries cost you?

I have not seen a complete and documented economic analysis from any of the suppliers? Wonder why?
Enviromentally on a cruising sailboat it does not add up either, with other options being better, like solar and wind (sail power)

Alan
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Old 20-10-2008, 13:38   #13
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I suspect that the Electric Hybrid will work out better on the Lagoon 500, than it has on smaller vessels. The single biggest component in designing an efficient system is that of storage capacity. On cats smaller than 50 feet, the hit from the weight of a properly sized battery bank is a rather insurmountable hurdle for someone who truly wants to sail with Electric propulsion augmentation and limited running of a generator. Absent a battery bank of fewer than (24) 200amp batteries - you'd have to rely too much on the diesel generation since power consumption would occur at a rate faster than can be replenished through just using solar (6hr a day avg charge), and wind. Without an adequate level of reserve capacity - you'll be forced to run the genset 2 hours a day any way (since just an hour a day of low rpms doesn't make a genset happy over the longhaul) and that defeats the original intended purpose. The weight hit of about 1 ton would cause a noticible decrease in carrying capacity of the avg sub 50 ft cat, but becomes rather negligible above 50ft. (All of this is based on using standard current technology batteries, and not any of the pushing edge technologies with lower weights - as their costs are still rather prohibitive)

Optimal arrangement on a 50ft plus cruising cat would be:

4 180w Solar Panels
2 Whisper Gens
24-200 amp Batteries (Divided Between 2 Banks Ran in Parrallel) @12V
Dual 16 kw Motors w/controllers
Charge Controller - Inverter

This setup provides for 500 amp/hrs daily usage. Under normal conditions, that's enough for EXTREMELY liberal electric usage on the house side - w/ and average daily 4 hrs of propulsion motor runtime without need to run the generator. (Higher wind, longer sun, and less house usage all increase range under electric power alone to as much as 7 hours - althouh I'd consider 6 hours as the reasonable max) So more than reasonable for the avg tropical cat sailing realities.

Weights:

24 bat @ 160lbs each = 3850 lbs @
2 16kw motors@ 300lb each = 600 lbs

2 75 hp Diesels @ 550lb each = (-)1100 lbs
1 full 125 Fuel Tank removed = (-)1150 lbs

Fuel vs Battery cost over 5 years:

Batteries = $15,600

Diesel @ $5/gallon avg * 250 gal full tank= $1,250 per fill * 2 fills/year (divided over the year) = $2,500/yr * 5 years = $12,500

With properly sized storage capacity, the hybrid electric option is not unreasonable on a larget boat. For comfortable cruising on a cat less than 50 feet, I would only consider the new Lithium Phosphate battery technology, and the costs are still a bit prohibitive for most (A $10,000 premium over 5 years = $2000/ year). If using standard battery technology, the weight hit is simply to big to allow properly sized battery capacity on sub 50 ft cat - and is the primary reason hybrids are having trouble getting off the ground imo...
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Old 20-10-2008, 14:43   #14
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The Whispergens weigh around 200 pounds each, the efficiency of those is lower than a traditional diesel, so you will still be burning roughly the same amount of diesel. Extra chargers, busbars cables add another couple of hundred pounds.

Solar panels could be on both types of boat, so factor them out - say they are used for the house bank.

So around 1 tons more weight, plus the battery replacements every 5 years.

2 x 75 horsepower diesels will push this boat at way over 8.5 knots, even up against the wind, which the electricals won't

2 whispergens each deliver 800W, or 1.6kW in total. It will take 18 hours to recharge the batteries if they are flat (50% capacity =28.8 kWh)

The fully charged batteries will give you less than 1 hour at full speed with the Whispergens charging! (50% use of total battery charge: P=UxI = x 24 x 2400 =28800 Wh = 28.8 kWh) This does not take into account the losses in the motors either, and as these use Pulse width modulation and are an inductive load, there will be some phase shift losses that are not specified.

IMO there is still no case for hybrids on a cat. If you could fill your keel up with batteries on a mono, then there might be a slightly better case

A lighter 50 ft cat that sails well would only need around 30 hp engines to do 8.5 knots. Say a 10 ton boat instead of close to 20 tons.


Alan
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Old 20-10-2008, 15:00   #15
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until fullproof lightning protection is developed which protects critical motor drive electrical components
The answer to your prayers TC for lightning protection may lye in "BuckyPaper"!

Good Morning Yahoo!

buckypaper .com
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