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Old 13-10-2013, 02:39   #106
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

So... multihulls CAN sink???
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Old 13-10-2013, 04:23   #107
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Originally Posted by gonesail View Post
So... multihulls CAN sink???
Only poorly designed ones.
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Old 13-10-2013, 04:34   #108
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

Sad ending.
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Old 13-10-2013, 04:37   #109
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Only poorly designed ones.
Oops! Awkward! Didn't we blame the owner for the design in the fine print?
Hello, legal tricks dept? we have a problem....
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Old 13-10-2013, 07:28   #110
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38mm jib sheet?
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Old 13-10-2013, 07:53   #111
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Originally Posted by gonesail View Post
So... multihulls CAN sink???
We really don't know if it would have gone all the way to the bottom. Alot of the reserve bouancy might be in the bridgedeck. Since only one hull was flooded and touched bottom, any reserve provided by the bridge desk area did not come into play. I've tried to do some basic calculations on my boat and it would seem to me that it will stay on the surface with the decks awash, but it would not be a nice place to stay. Some people would describe this as sunk, others might not. Upside down it would seem to do a bit better as air would likely be trapped in the hulls. All of this somewhat assumes the hull is relatively intact. Some of my bouyancy comes from sealed collision compartments in the bows. If they were breached it might well head for the bottom. Depending on the damage a flooded cat might or might not sink, the same cannot be said for a flooded monohull beyond a dinghy.
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Old 13-10-2013, 07:55   #112
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Not all Lagoons. I just was at the Bordeaux factory to see the 52 production. The rudders are aft of the sail drives. Each rudder has it's own hydraulic ram.
Yes, and their older models have saildrives forward also. I think the rear drive design point started with the 380.

I did say "that" Lagoon!

So 52' must be the point at which Lagoon believes there is enough interior volume that they can move the drives a couple feet forward again?

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Old 13-10-2013, 08:10   #113
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

Firstly my sympathy to the owners. Its a nightmare that could easily happen to anyone.
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Only poorly designed ones.
I know my monohull will sink!
I make this point because boats don't have to be unsinkable to be seaworthy.

I do worry that most beginners think cats are unsinkable and make plans on this assumption. This idea is naturally promoted by the catamaran industry, but I think it should be challenged.
I did a quick search of CF for Seawind sinkings. I have nothing against Seawind. I have been on several in the Whitsundays and they are great boats but considering the source of the quote I am confident they would not be considered poor designs

I found this report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post


You can notice a Seawind being refloated as well as the bows only floating of what I think is a Lagoon. Both these appear to be charter cats run by Whitsunday rent a yacht (WRAY) These are the only cats I know that sunk most others were driven ashore as follows.
I have no idea if the report is accurate. I suspect the factory would have been consulted on repairs so presumably they can shed some light on this case.

Can Seawinds, Outremer and presumably other brands that would avoid the label of "poor designs" really not sink? I remain sceptical, especially on boats loaded up in cruising trim.

I think manufacturers would be much better to advance the idea that multihulls are much more likely to stay afloat than their monohull cousins. This is valuable advantage without making unrealistic claims.

Promoting the idea that most cats can never sink, or when these incidents occur, dismissing them as examples of poor design is wrong.

It is particularly unfair to brands like Lagoon, that because of their popularity will naturally have more incidents.
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Old 13-10-2013, 08:16   #114
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

I would say the the props are more than inches from the stern. It's still a shitty design.
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Old 13-10-2013, 08:54   #115
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
We really don't know if it would have gone all the way to the bottom. Alot of the reserve bouancy might be in the bridgedeck. Since only one hull was flooded and touched bottom, any reserve provided by the bridge desk area did not come into play. I've tried to do some basic calculations on my boat and it would seem to me that it will stay on the surface with the decks awash, but it would not be a nice place to stay. Some people would describe this as sunk, others might not. Upside down it would seem to do a bit better as air would likely be trapped in the hulls. All of this somewhat assumes the hull is relatively intact. Some of my bouyancy comes from sealed collision compartments in the bows. If they were breached it might well head for the bottom. Depending on the damage a flooded cat might or might not sink, the same cannot be said for a flooded monohull beyond a dinghy.


Read it again, both hulls were lying on the bottom. And they specifically state repeatedly that there was no reserve buoyancy left above the point to which she filled, only rigging. This boat sank. The skipper who brought the boat out from France, and who salvaged her, stated repeatedly that the boat would have sunk to the bottom if it hadn't been beached.


There are plenty of monos with positive floatation. The FD12 comes to mind (50' cruiser, not a dinghy). And guess what, since people tend to have a healthy skepticism about monos with PF, the builders actually tested it, took pictures and video, and published all the relevant tables and info. So you know that it is indeed the case. In fact they give you a table that shows how low the boat will float at various loads when compromised. Never ever seen a multi builder do that, because it would challenge the propaganda line they've tried so hard to develop, ie all multis float when compromised and float high enough that we don't need to discuss that.
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Old 13-10-2013, 09:11   #116
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, cll2.

Thanks for the informative link.
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Old 13-10-2013, 09:17   #117
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

sorry 18mm sheet I think, check the report, it probably said 3/4
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Old 13-10-2013, 09:57   #118
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I would say the the props are more than inches from the stern. It's still a shitty design.
OK, "inches" may have been a bit of a stretch, but what your picture does not show is that the stern sits clear of the water for a good bit of its length - which put the sail drive closer to the waterline than the paint shows.

Not to mention actually acts as an attractor/accumulator for a dinghy painter!

You can see this in the pic, where you can see the prop in relation to the waterline. So, if light - maybe 18-20"?

Mark
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Old 13-10-2013, 11:07   #119
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
OK, "inches" may have been a bit of a stretch, but what your picture does not show is that the stern sits clear of the water for a good bit of its length - which put the sail drive closer to the waterline than the paint shows.

Not to mention actually acts as an attractor/accumulator for a dinghy painter!

You can see this in the pic, where you can see the prop in relation to the waterline. So, if light - maybe 18-20"?

Mark
That was what I was thinking.
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Old 13-10-2013, 11:16   #120
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Re: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

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Oh, I've thought about it. Fill that compartment with water and the amount of pressure on that pipe full of silicone is substantial. No bond is bad. Why wouldn't they use glass tube properly bonded in to the bulkhead and filled with a better adhesive? Silicone is a joke. Glass tube is cheap, wouldn't cost them much more to do it right. Nothing sticks to PVC. The bond to it will fail, both between the tube and the bulkhead and between the tube and the silicone. I bet they didn't even sand it.
"They" is me. What is the tube there for? Wires run through it. Refrigeration lines also. Sanding is stupid. The silicone isn't going anywhere. Really, how much pressure to you think ONE foot of water is going to exert on the plug? If you had a hole in your hull and need an emergency plug, what would you put over it? A piece of sail? Canvas? Do you think they will hold in an emergency? The pressure is minimal.
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