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Old 03-09-2014, 12:10   #16
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

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Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
What was the weight savings on the lithium batteries?
Before: 6xExide 140Ah = 282kg/840Ah - with 252Ah usable (50%-80%) or max or 420Ah (50%-100%)
After: 8xWinston 700Ah = 170kg/1400Ah - with 980Ah usable (20%-90%) or max 1260Ah usable (10%-100%)

Savings: 112kg
Gains: 728Ah - 840Ah, no voltage sag under high load (coffee maker, toaster, autopilot dealing with large waves - all this simultaneously). This had caused many low voltage alarms even on new LA batteries.

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Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
Your solar panels and batteries seem well matched to me. The nice thing about Lithium is you get to use all of that capacity instead of just part of it. I would worry about fires though.
Why would you worry about fires? LiFePo is safer then LA, Can you imagine a spark in the battery compartment from a blown fuse or bad connection while the LA batteries are gassing? The battery compartment on the L450 has no venting at all and is under a bed. The LFP batteries will not catch fire under any situation (total short, total over charge, discharge) and the cables are protected by T-class fuses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
Photovoltaic's and wind generators can produce way more power than are needed on a catamaran with all those mounting locations. This is the #1 selling point for me along with having a nice place to store a dinghy.
IMO wind provides very little. My panels are not on the davits. Too much shade and too little space. Extending the natural line of the cockpit roof does it for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
So then we can consider what do do with that excess power. Dumping it into a hot water heater makes sense. It that your plan?
Yep. Wife really likes it. Great bonus points for me.

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Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
I am not sure I understand why you need two 3000W inverters, though. I could understand having two sizes so you could run lighter loads with a smaller more efficient inverter. Were you planning on dumping the excess power into heating two hot water tanks? Or is this for redundancy.
Bosch Verobar 100 coffee maker 1700W on 220V with Victron Autotransformer
Toaster 1000W
Hot water kettle 1200W
Hot water tank 1200W
Various laptop/phone chargers 300W
Total 5400W
We live on the boat all winter, so we want our creature comforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
I have yet to see a solar hot water heater on a boat, but it would be high on my list. How hard would it be to plumb that in? I have solar hot water on my house and it works amazingly well.
I saw a home-built design on Pratical Boat Owner a few years back. I was considering to get a single tube collector, but running the hoses through the deck and dealing with pumps and thermostats does not seem worth the effort, especially if I have to give ut one 300W solar panel.

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Originally Posted by Night_Sailor View Post
Speaking of redundancy, I like the idea of two independent auto-pilots, and a tiller arm on each rudder head.
For me that would be too much insurance cost for too little a chance of ever being used. If I was going on long passages again, I may get a second electronics module.

Friends of ours had problems during the Atlantic crossing with power (generator failing, alternator failing, solar not working (before they left). They went "blackship" 4 days into the crossing, and had to hand steer for 15 days with a small handheld backup GPS started up once a day to place a location on their chart and get the new bearing. They made it safely - very tired though - and still married.

Make sure your electrical system including charging is in good shape and you can fix things as you go along. Much more important IMO.
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Old 03-09-2014, 15:09   #17
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

Great advice Rolf. A couple off additional questions..the 2 chargers, do you find you are drawing more than 3kw at times? It seems from your figures you would need to have everything going to trip the inverter, but is guess that has happened at times to warrant an additional one?
Also hot water. On our L 400 we have 1120w solar and 700Ah battery so generally enough excess capacity to heat the boiler. It's probably the same as yours, a quick 20l 1200w. I have occasionally simply unplugged it from the power point and ran an extension lead to nearby socket to heat the water. This draws over 100 amps, so close to 70A if the solar is putting in 40A. I'm considering changing the element to 500W so the draw is closer o the solar output and it will obviously take twice as long to neat but that's ok with us. The inverter is not connected with the boiler socket, I am concerned if it were permanently connected we might forget it and drain the batteries accidentally. How do you have yours connected? I guess with your capacity it's not such an issue but I'm just wondering about a safe and convenient way to manage it for us. Possibly some sort of timer switch where it needs to be manually activated but will turn off after one hour until pressed again might work. Thanks again
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Old 03-09-2014, 23:54   #18
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Great advice Rolf. A couple off additional questions..the 2 chargers, do you find you are drawing more than 3kw at times? It seems from your figures you would need to have everything going to trip the inverter, but is guess that has happened at times to warrant an additional one?
Since I had two of them hooked up I never have been to a marina and I rarley use the inverters as chargers. I can limit the shore power available to the chargers with the Victron remote, so they don't blow a fuse on the dock.

Quote:
Also hot water. On our L 400 we have 1120w solar and 700Ah battery so generally enough excess capacity to heat the boiler. It's probably the same as yours, a quick 20l 1200w. I have occasionally simply unplugged it from the power point and ran an extension lead to nearby socket to heat the water. This draws over 100 amps, so close to 70A if the solar is putting in 40A. I'm considering changing the element to 500W so the draw is closer o the solar output and it will obviously take twice as long to neat but that's ok with us. The inverter is not connected with the boiler socket, I am concerned if it were permanently connected we might forget it and drain the batteries accidentally. How do you have yours connected? I guess with your capacity it's not such an issue but I'm just wondering about a safe and convenient way to manage it for us. Possibly some sort of timer switch where it needs to be manually activated but will turn off after one hour until pressed again might work. Thanks again
Monte
Currently our heater is connected just like everything else. I just flip the breaker on the Lagoon 120V control panel. But forgetting it is a concern. The low voltage disconnect would save my batteries, but not my day. I will be putting a household timer into the circuit, so I can only turn it on maximum for 60 minutes at a time. Unfortunately, I could only find this ugly one that supports enoug amps. It is good for 20A.

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I would not worry about reducing the heater coil wattage. I assume you have LiFePo batteries. The charge efficiency is near 100% and the Peukert nar 1.0 so not much lost in drawing more than the solar provides.
40 A from your solar seems low. O would expect at least 60A with a peak near 75A under best conditions.
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Old 04-09-2014, 02:01   #19
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

Thanks Rolf. Yes the timer seems to be the go. I'm sure you can also set the mastbus to also switch on and off the individual circuit at set voltages which may be more convenient for you but a bit more work. We have the standard wet cell batteries from lagoon so heating the water would take out 20% of our usable capacity. I have been advised that shouldn't be a problem for the batteries but I'd prefer a lower draw with the solar putting in most of the required amps. Yes 40A is conservative, maximum would be around 80A from the solar.
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Old 21-02-2015, 08:25   #20
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

Hi fellow Lagoon owners we have recently (6 weeks ago) purchased a Lagoon 450 in Spain and I have been busy learning the systems and getting ready to start our first year cruising in the the Med.
I now would like to add a Solar Array to the boat

I don't need something that will run the whole boat (as we have a Onan 11kva)

The company I am dealing with here in Spain have recommended 900 watt
-6 x 150 watt Sunmodule SW150 r6a divided into two groups of 450 watts each (wired in series)
- going into a 40 amp MPPT controller with a remote monitor

Both of these are EPsolar brand-made in China.
I have an option to have it as one system with an Outback 80 amp MPPT for additional 200 euros

1/ would there be any advantage of one system over the other than
2 x 40A redundancy 1 x 80A simpler set up more cost-better MPPT?

2/ Any first hand experience with either MPPT brand -good /bad?

3/Where did you mount the MPPT and remote monitor (s)-I have LA batteries problems with sparks??
4/How is the MPPT wired into the existing system?
I have the standard Lagoon configuration
-840 A/H LA batteries
-60/40 amp Cristec chargers
-MasterVolt
-500 A shunt
-Mass Sine 2000w inverter
-MasterView Easy MK11
I would like this to be integrated into the existing system as best as possible with no modifications

Electrics is not my strong point so all advice /information will be very helpfull
i have spent a lot of time reading all posts I could find on solar installations on a L450
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Old 21-02-2015, 09:05   #21
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

RIV33
Quote:
Originally Posted by riv33 View Post
Both of these are EPsolar brand-made in China.
I have an option to have it as one system with an Outback 80 amp MPPT for additional 200 euros. Go for the Outback!

1/ would there be any advantage of one system over the other than.
I can't speak for the Chinese equipment but if you elect for this - get references and a good warranty.
2 x 40A redundancy 1 x 80A simpler set up more cost-better MPPT?
2/ Any first hand experience with either MPPT brand -good /bad? Ive installed the FM80 onto our 450 and its worked flawlessly. Outback make good equipment and have an excellent support service if needed.
3/Where did you mount the MPPT and remote monitor (s)- Its installed under the STBD bed directly above the house batteries. You want the cables from the MPPT to the battery shunt to be as short as possible. Ive put the remote outside the bed mounted on the wall.
4/How is the MPPT wired into the existing system? The attachment is how our system is wired in. Effectively, the MPPT is wired to a breaker and then to the shunt. Ensure that your MPPT is configured/setup to be compatible with LA, Gel or AGM batteries.

I have the standard Lagoon configuration
-840 A/H LA batteries
-60/40 amp Cristec chargers
-MasterVolt
-500 A shunt
-Mass Sine 2000w inverter
-MasterView Easy MK11
I would like this to be integrated into the existing system as best as possible with no modifications.
I have a similar setup and if you follow what I have done, though others may have improved ideas, you shouldn't have any issues. My system has been up and performing for a year now without any issues.

I have a schematic of my system. If this can be of assistance then PM me.
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Old 21-02-2015, 13:49   #22
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

We have had the boat since December. At first in the Virgins, and now for the last 3 weeks in St Martin, Anguilla and St Barts. We LOVE it. We can only compare its performance to our previous boat, an FP Bahia 46. We think it is an way easier boat to handle, with excellent speed, and so amazingly comfortable and well laid out. Like all cats, our VMG drops when trying to point higher than approx 38 apparent wind angle, but we travelled from V Gorda to Saba in 21-24 kn pointing as high as we could, tacking at Saba after dark and dropping anchor in Great Bay St Martin at midnight. Averaged 7.5 kn. Also appreciated that the attack angle into the 6-12 foot seas was not too steep. Yes it was jarring, but much less so than our upwinder to St Lucia last winter.
2015 Lagoon has B and G electronics. Love them.
Flexible panels installed on roof above salon: they work well, but we are concerned about longevity. Carelessly tended genoa sheets banging on them during tacks have taken pff some of shiny layer.
Have had LOTS of problems with Ft Lauderdale installed modifications (generator, frsh water hoses, popping breakers) most of which have been handled in Tortola, but the jury is still out on WARRANTY support.
From my point of view, it is an easy choice to buy Lagoon just because the history of quality and way better resale than FP. More later
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Old 21-02-2015, 13:49   #23
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

"Ive put the remote outside the bed mounted on the wall." That,s a good idea and a good place for it.
I have been thinking about relocating most of the control equipment in the Electrical Cabinet in the saloon to the wall between entry to owners starboard hull and bed at eye level.
Currently if I want to cheek on battery SOC % or charging current (Master Volt Panel) or solar charging performance (Outback Flex Panel) etc you need to open the cupboard door and sit on the steps to read as they are mounted down bellow the Lagoon control panels.
It would be so much easier if these where mounted at eye level in the owners hull.
I do not use electric lift for the TV so there is a large amount of potential saloon storage going to waste.

I have also just ordered a sixth Sunpower E20 Panel which will take me up to 2kW of solar, spare capicity on one of the FlexMax 80 will now be used and also gives me an extra 20% charging capacity.

While on the electrical theme will be changing over AC power points for 2 and 4 outlet double pole switched units. This will do away with the multi-outlet power boards and enable me to turn devices off without continually pluging and unplugging them. Then the Victron Inverter will be able to drop into standby mode and save another 3 to 4 amps an hour. Instead of turning inverter on and off all the time.
I have a digital video recorder that I have wired off the original 200 watt Lagoon TV inverter so as not affect that when main inverter goes to standby.
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Old 22-02-2015, 18:19   #24
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Re: Lagoon 450 Owners Only!

Wondering if anyone could tell me what the best sail plan would be for the 45 to be sailed East Coast US and the Caribbean.


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