450: Lagoon 450

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by zarkmud

Anyway, it proved to me I want more performance than a dog Broadblue although the helm station on the port side was fine and convenient to the cockpit. I can see the tradeoffs for the flying bridge.

The basic maths:

.........................Displ......Sailplan...... .Sail Area / Displacement
Broadblue 415......9.1 T.......101 sm.......11.1 sm/ton
Lagoon 450........15.5 T.......134 sm........8.6 sm/ton

Unless someone has repealed the laws of physics I don't see how the Lagoon will outperform a Broadblue 42. Ever. The 450 has a handkerchief of a sailplan. Not that I would hold the BB up as a performance boat mind you.

[zarkmud]

So if the Broadblue is a dog to me then the Lagoon would be as well. Well, this is some learning curve and it will take a lot more research on my part that appears certain/ Thanks for your help/

[Poco Loco III]

It was on the Boat show in Holland, only have teh one pic though....
Hiswa-te-water-2010DSC08805 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[Wellington]

Just back from Le Grand Pavois in La Rochelle. I was very, very impressed by the L450. And it seems that I was not alone: On Thursday, hull number 56 was sold.

I was also very impressed by the L400. Over 100 have already been sold.
Lagoon seems to have weathered the storm very well.

[JustThinking]

Originally Posted by Steve_C

.....the flybridge....

....could somebody please educate me on the benefits of a "Flybridge" on a Cat?
Except to follow the obvious general tendency to move the CG up and up and up and.... :-)

Or could it be that they now are targeting the Motorboat-Owner market, especially those owners who are a tad tired of the cost for fuel, don't want to really move up in size but if they go for a sailing boat, they want the same space and "amenities" they are used from their stink-pots? (i.e. such as "Flybridges"?)

Or did these builders find a way to defy the laws of physics according to which, (according to my current information) "They higher up" also means "the more uncomfortable movements"??

questions over questions here........

[Poco Loco III]

sorry matey.... you just have to spend some time up there ( as we do in about 90% of our time on board..) to learn to appreciate a flybridge on a cat.... It's awesome.....

[Wellington]

Originally Posted by JustThinking

....could somebody please educate me on the benefits of a "Flybridge" on a Cat?
Except to follow the obvious general tendency to move the CG up and up and up and.... :-)

I too was very skeptical (high boom, windage, high centre of gravity, exposure to the sun / rain / wind). Now I believe that it's the best possible layout for family cruising. Not because 90% of the time is spent on the hook (you have an extra living space), but for its own sake. Just try it !

[Ozbullwinkle]

Flybridges on cats are really intended for the charter market and for those owners who do predominantly day trips or relatively short coastal trips. A flybridge with all of its associated downsides as shown in Wellingtions post above will have a great affect on the sailing ability of a cat compared to a non FB model. They cannot expect to sail as well but for a family boat they are fine but if you plan on any serious ocean passages I would stay right away from the FB cats.

[Poco Loco III]

ah.....an expert cool.... well maybe you would like to share some of your experiences with Big cats with a FB on 'serious' ocean passages...?
Any info is more then welcome.

[Ozbullwinkle]

Hi Paco Loco III,

An expert - I didn't realise that you knew me!........

I knew that when I wrote my post that you would "take the bait" as you should be rightfully proud to be an owner of a Lagoon 500 which is a beautiiful vessel.

It just comes down to the fact that the lower the CofG is kept in a cat the better their stability will be. You are not questioning this fact are you?

I have done ocean passages but not in a flybridge cat BUT there are many on this forum who have and my comment is based on the many comments & experiences from those who have done it like professional delivery captains.

As you are relatively new to the forum you may not have seen this quick search to look for previous posts which I have added as it may be helpfull for you in viewing any past topics on ths forum.


Cruisers & Sailing Forum

The flybrige vs non flybridge debate is always a popular one and gets a lot of good debate going.

All the best with your 500.

[Poco Loco III]

hi Ozbull.... :-)

Always have had a tendency to rely on my own experiences or those close by me.... but rest a sure I will read the previous posts on the subject, would be interesting to read a post of a delivery skipper who's actually 'done' a big cat :-)

[paulrack]

I know a delivery skipper that delivered a lagoon 500 from France to Cape Town, his next delivery was a Rayvin 30 from Cape Town to Australia. His average speed of the Rayvin was the same as the 500 on most passages with a 20ft difference in boat size! He did not like the 500 at all. The next skipper that took the 500 to the Carribean after all the warranty work in Cape Town had a lovely relaxing sail on the 500 on autopilot the whole way. I guess it depends what you want from your boat. No boat is going to satisfy everyone. People have different preferences and their family's have different preferences. Not sure if it is necessary to take offence on one persons view. The height of the boom is a fact when you look at the boat compared to a boat without a flybridge, you cannot get away from that. Personally I do not like it, but plenty of people do as Lagoon sells lots of boats.

[D&D]

There is certainly evidence around that suggests the FB cats are quite comfortable (and even fairly quick) for long passages. There is, for example, a fairly detailed blog of the adventures of Leu Cat, an L440, at Welcome To Our Sailing Web Site | LeuCat Adventures where Dave & Mary Leu speak with both experience and candour.

Whilst there can be no doubt about both the stability and potential discomfort effects of moving weight higher on a vessel, logic also suggests the actual net effect in a cruising cat might be almost (if not actually) negligible given (i) the actual amount of weight shifted (the helmsperson and perhaps companion) relative to the weight of the vessel and (ii) the actual increase in height above water line compared to the typical raised helm station and (iii) the actual potential for resulting movement discomfort given the lack of heeling in cats generally. It seems to us that perhaps the greatest comfort issue with the flybridge design might be exposure, but (as with many cats) the typical FB cat is equipped with a bimini-type enclosure...and the FB owners (including some of the posts already on this thread as well as many others now cruising serious ocean passages) all appear to absolutely rave about the design.

Of course the flybridge also raises the sail plan somewhat, but as regards performance, we might let Dave & Mary speak...

The L440 "...is a very fast boat, especially in light winds. Even with all of the weight we carry, we still make 4 knots in 6 knots apparent, 5 knots in 8 knots apparent, and 5.5 knots in 10 knots apparent. We easily make 8 knots in 15 knots apparent. The top speed we have made is 15.5 knots in about 30 to 35 knots of wind." we note other posts of cruisers observing the L440 which confirm Dave & Mary's figures...and they sounds pretty good to us! We also absolutely agree with Dave & Mary's next remark..."Quite frankly, when you are cruising, high speed is not something that you really want. You want a reasonably fast boat but one that is safe in all types of weather. The 440 is just that."

If we step away from all the academic approaches, our readings suggest an overwhelming support for the FB design by those in cruising situations, including many undertaking long passages...and that support seems very persuasive to us!

Fair winds to all

[isamar]

A few days ago I tested a Lagoon 500 (2007) that I am planning to buy. Light wind, 7/8 kts. and just standard main and (small) genoa on board. I was especting practically no movement in such conditions with a 21 tons catamaran loaded with every possible optional.
I was surprised to see how easily the boat accelerated, doing 4.5 knots with 45 deg. into the wind, and between 6 to 6.5 at 60 deg. with 10 knots apparent.
Going back to marina, we were downwind at approx 140 deg. and I did not record the results as sail plan was clearly not adeguate, but a good estimation was about 4 knots. This with standard fixed props.
Die Welt entdecken unter Segeln. Eine Familie segelt um die Welt (sorry, in german) has on his site very datailed data on the ARC atlantic crossing mostly with a Parasailor alone, with an average speed of 7.1 knots and a few days with over 200 nautical miles in 24 hours.
31.12.2009 (see bottom of page)
And they enjoyed the FB very much!

Sergio

[impi]

I have a 440 for one year now and was thinking of trading up to the 450. the 450 looks great - am sorry they have 'cut backs' in the coach roof where the steps go up to the helm station as in rough weather water pours over our coachroof on the 440 without the seats getting wet. It seems to me that water will pour into the seating area but I may be wrong. Also, I find the steps just above the bed in the main cabin take away the brilliant 'cieling hight' of the 440. HELM STATION: I am looking at putting in an extra helm where the sliding door leads to the cabin. Starboard side of the door has a large removable panel. If one removes the panel, you can see the steering cables coming down to under the floorboards. The top of the cables have chain that goes around the flybridge steering cog (?). My thoughts are to manufacture a bracket that fits into this panel (near the door) and mount a double cog shaft with a spline in the center (aligned to the cable route). the theory is that the flybridge steering gear will rotate the new shaft which in turn rotates the cable which is now chained to the second cog on new shaft. when replacing the panel, there will be a neat fitting into which a second 'steering wheel' can be inserted (quick fit and remove ability). In rough weather the steering wheel can now be used inserted below instead of on the fly bridge.
It would be great if someone has already done this successfuly, but I DO find especially when rounding Cape Point in heavy seas, that it would be better to steer from down stairs than up on the flybridge, and the remote control steering is not responsive enough with a following sea.
AM I MAD ????