440: Lagoon 440 Weight, Height, Flybridge

[gw5455]

To both Tim and Adaero,

I'd like to thank you both for the time you took to give me such detailed responses. That's the beauty of a forum like this. I will certainly take the information you gave me and add it to my decision process. As I mentioned, the plan is to charter both in June, back to back. Tim, I'll let you know when we come down to BVI and maybe we can compare some more notes.

Thanks again,

Gary

[GPM]

I bought a Logoon 440 last September and have sailed it in the BVI all winter. I believe the 440 is slightly lighter than the 420, but it is on the heavier side of cats. There is a lot of room and a lot of nice finishes, which translates to weight. But the performance is outstanding. We have been really impressed with sailing characteristics and speed. I also did not think I would like the flybridge, but now I love it. I can signle hand from there and I can see the sails clearly. It is also great for navigating the reefs in the BVI. If you haven't sailed one, get on board. Before buying, I test sailed a 440 and 420 in the same day and there was no comparison, I went with the 440.

[jzk]

"I should point out that we love our Leopard 45, and have had a good bit of experience skippering the 47's, as well. As devoted Leopard fans, it is thus hard to have to criticize the 46, but it seems as if this new Morelli design is not nearly as robust or as well thought out as the older Simonis designs, sorry to say. "

The Moreli design seems to be a nice improvement over the Simonis for performance, but hopefully not at too much a cost in durability. The saildrives seem like an achilles heel. I look at the Moorings boats coming out of charter with 5000-6000 hours on the traditional shaft drive, and I really wonder how the saildrives will do. They seem like they are just a big pain in the ass. Gunboat won't put saildrives on their boats.

My favorite boat is the Leopard 47 for the overall value. It could have better bridgedeck clearance, but otherwise seems like the deal of the century. There is a crewed version on Yachtworld for $300k. Very nice. (As far as I can tell the only benefit to the crewed version of the Leopard 47 is that it was never bareboated). I also wonder why the keels are "sacrificial." I suspect beaching it is out of the question.

I absolutely LOVE the fly-bridge on the Lagoon 440. I don't know what all the fuss is about. 90% of the time you will be on autopilot anyway, right? I would just make sure that jacklines allowe for a fully harnessed trip up and back from it, but other than that, it seems like a really nice bonus.

As far as the Lagoon 38 tragedy, I am starting more and more to believe that a Jordan series drogue is the answer especially as compared to a chute type sea anchor if you have plenty of sea room leward. They said that the Lagoon was flopping around in 45 foot waves.

[Tim Schaaf]

You will also find differences between the crewed 47 and the bareboat in the tankage and the materials used in various areas of the interior, some equipment, water heaters, etc. etc. The crewed 4700 is also sold with a 12 foot rib with 25 HP engine. Some of these are pretty used up, but others are in very good shape. Our outboard was almost new, and we got three years of very heavy duty service out of the dinghy before replacing it. Even then, it was more than adequate for cruising use, but beginning to look a bit ragged for the luxury charter trade.

The keels are sacrificial so that, if damaged, they may be removed in the water for replacement, or repair. Yes, you can beach the 45/47, but you need to put a supporting strut under the bows if you leave them high and dry for any period. Be very careful about hauling with a marine railway, as the ties do not spread the load sufficiently. You need something to support the full length of the keels. The keels are very lightly made. Perhaps the main advantage of the sacrificial keels is that if you ground on rocks or reef and hole the keels, the hulls are not compromised. Other boats where the hulls and keels are one piece mean that the hull's watertight integrity will be breached

[Badgerman]

Originally Posted by GPM

I bought a Logoon 440 last September and have sailed it in the BVI all winter. I believe the 440 is slightly lighter than the 420, but it is on the heavier side of cats. There is a lot of room and a lot of nice finishes, which translates to weight. But the performance is outstanding. We have been really impressed with sailing characteristics and speed. I also did not think I would like the flybridge, but now I love it. I can signle hand from there and I can see the sails clearly. It is also great for navigating the reefs in the BVI. If you haven't sailed one, get on board. Before buying, I test sailed a 440 and 420 in the same day and there was no comparison, I went with the 440.

Glad you got a 440.......the 420 is a "dog of a cat"

We took a 440 outside Anegada and saw amazing speeds in pretty big seas......love the flybridge.......great visibility as we manuevered
through the coral heads........great boat. Congratulations!!

[BigCat]

"Perhaps the main advantage of the sacrificial keels is that if you ground on rocks or reef and hole the keels, the hulls are not compromised. Other boats where the hulls and keels are one piece mean that the hull's watertight integrity will be breached"

Not if you turn the keels into tanks, for say, effluent. They will serve a useful purpose that way, if you do damage them you haven't lost your water or created an oil slick. Since they would be glassed over the top where they enter the hull, damage to the keels doesn't create a leak at all. Low effluent tanks means that you don't have to use marine heads, but can rather use RV heads, which are simpler, more reliable, and don't create any danger of accidental flooding. See Dometic Sanitation Systems for an example. Since your effluent tanks will be large, you can wait to pump overboard until you are 3 miles offshore, and you can make them strong enough to support the boat when it is dried out.

[Tim Schaaf]

In the last week, we had the opportunity to sail once against a 440, and once against a 420. In each case the other boat had started ahead of us, but as has been invariably the case with these boats, our Leopard 45 overhauled each. We caught the 440 going from Virgin Gorda to Anagada, and the 420 going from Anagada to Jost Van Dyke. Both of these sails tend to be fun reaches, and this was the case in these instances.

Calculating speed difference by radar, I would say we were going about a half knot faster than each of the Lagoons. My surprise came from the fact that we had to work as hard to catch the 420 as the 440! The 420 crew did seem to be working harder, and their sails were definitely trimmed better, but they were also towing a dinghy, so I was impressed with their performance.

Although we are way overloaded with all the paraphanalia of our crewed charter operation, our secret weapon is that we are one of the handful of Leopards carrying twin three bladed Max-Props, which, of course, feather while under sail. Given our excess bagage, without these props we might be looking at the Lagoons' transoms a bit more, rather than the reverse.

Incidentally, the Moorings has had plenty of trouble with the saildrives in their Leopard 46's. The 45/47, of course, has straight drives with the props protected by skegs.

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

Incidentally, the Moorings has had plenty of trouble with the saildrives in their Leopard 46's. The 45/47, of course, has straight drives with the props protected by skegs.

Could you be a bit more specific regarding types of saildrives and problems?

I am just about to choose between fixed shaft and the Yanmar SD50 saildrives.

Regards

Alan

[Adaero]

Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf

Incidentally, the Moorings has had plenty of trouble with the saildrives in their Leopard 46's. The 45/47, of course, has straight drives with the props protected by skegs.

That's a new one on me too.
The SD50 has quite a good reputation to my knowledge. Are you sure you are talking about the Yanmar SD50 not the Volvo's that were fitted to the majority of the first year build on the Leopard 46?

So I could work out which spares would be best for me to carry I got my hands on all of the L46 warranty claims over the last 18 months and there wasn't one claim on a SD50 saildrive.

There is a massive difference between heresay and fact!!!!

[AndyT]

Hi Every one .

I am in my finnal debate between lagoon 440 2009 and the Leopard 46 2009
I sail with my family( 5 kids )and would appriciate and recomendations pro's and con's you could help me with .
I sail the Med and have no plans so far for Ocean crossing .
Thanks

[Adaero]

Originally Posted by AndyT

Hi Every one .

I am in my finnal debate between lagoon 440 2009 and the Leopard 46 2009
I sail with my family( 5 kids )and would appriciate and recomendations pro's and con's you could help me with .
I sail the Med and have no plans so far for Ocean crossing .
Thanks

The only way to make this decision is to take a two week holiday and charter each for a week. You will know after that which one you prefer and which suits your plans best.
Make sure you keep one eye on exchange rates and where they are going as the Leopard will be in USD and the Lagoon in Euro's.
I looked closely at both and decided on the Leopard but it was a close run thing and what's important to you will probably be very different to me.
Have Fun

[jzk]

They are both very nice boats. I like the Leopard because it will sail circles around the Lagoon 440. I do, contrary to popular opinion, like the bridgedeck on the Lagoon.

The early Leopard 46s had some problems, so I would really make sure you get a good explanation as to the factory remedial action that has been taken to correct them.

[Adaero]

Originally Posted by jzk

The early Leopard 46s had some problems, so I would really make sure you get a good explanation as to the factory remedial action that has been taken to correct them.

Don't worry I did before I placed my order!!

I chartered an early hull # in the BVI last year and had a list of things that I found and I also included anything I had heard on the grapevine. My lists and reports were given to Gino Morelli who (via Leopard sales) answered nearly every point I raised apart from a few. The few they wouldn't budge on were mainly cosmetic or could be classed as custom alterations such as the cooker being moved to where the sink is in the galley etc. Anything major such as, lack of access to the helm from the cockpit, Volvo saildrive problems (now Yanmar), pooling of water in the cockpit, davits not strong enough etc have all been rectified.
As I said to Andy in a PM, I really like the 440 and it was touch and go whether we bought one but after analysing everything we decided the L46 was the better boat for us. Andy said above that he will only be Med sailing and not crossing oceans, if that was my sailing criteria I'm not certain I would make the same decision.
To use a phrase that is often found here "every boat is a compromise".

[freetime]

Adaero:

When do you pick up your new leopard? Must show us...

[sail4evr]

I own a L440
I love the flybridge. It puts me up high in the middle where I can see almost everything. That's good for docking, picking up moorings and finding your way through reefs, shoals and coral heads.
It's also good because your 5 friends and guests can join you to enjoy the sailing together and keep you in the party rather than have your back turned to everybody while you are driving.

As for speed, it is certainly fast enough for me. If getting someplace 15 min or 1/2 hour earlier after a whole day of sailing is important, leave earlier or stop along the way. What is most important is having fun along the way and having fun when you get there. If you enjoy sailing what's bad about spending an extra 1/2 hour doing it? Somebody likened the L440 to a motorsailor. Never in a million years would I imagine that. Yes I might motorsail if I am pinching upwind or the wind is 6 knots or less but almost every boat is like that.

As for center of stability...so it's a little higher. Are you thinking you will be a lot safer in a cat 5 hurricane in a L46 rather than a L440. If so please revise your thinking. The issue is whether you have a sea anchor and other safety gear, not whether the center of stability is some small percentage higher. There are over 270 L440s delivered and all the ones to the western hemisphere come over on their keels and I have not heard of one capsized.
As for displacement, Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc. designers of the leopard claim 33000lbs and the L440 is listed at 29,000lbs at Lagoon's website.
As was suggested above the only way to decide is to charter each for a few weeks and see which one you like the best. That's really the bottom line between these two boats.