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Old 11-02-2008, 05:55   #76
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Originally Posted by Jeannius View Post
You are quite correct that the 440 finished first in division but you have misread the results page (easy to do) The 11 in the 'finished' column actually means they finished on the 11th December. If you go over to the 'Corr.' you'll see that their corrected time is 16 days 17 hours. Divide that by the Time Correction Factor 1.007 and you get an actual crossing time of approx 16 days 14 hours. !
So average speed is 6 and a bit knots? Thats still okay (just okay - not special) but its about all I reckon I would budget on without resorting to motor.
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Old 11-02-2008, 06:53   #77
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So average speed is 6 and a bit knots? Thats still okay (just okay - not special) but its about all I reckon I would budget on without resorting to motor.
Yes it's a reasonable speed. The only 'production' cats that regularly do much better averages (7 to 8+) on the ARC are Outremer and Catana and even then they need to have a pretty 'committed' driver in command.
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Old 11-02-2008, 20:15   #78
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The 440 is a great boat. The flybridge is a family delight and easy to manage. Just stay away from the 420 hybrid.
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:47   #79
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Badgerman,

I couldn't take it any longer. I had to take a look at the 420. I personally don't like the look of the boat. Then again like all owners I am very partial to what I own. Just what is it that makes you so determined to keep knocking this boat?

I am just curious as can be. Did you charter one? I am new here, so it will take a while to get to know people, and figure out where they might be coming from.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:40   #80
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Badgerman,

I couldn't take it any longer. I had to take a look at the 420. I personally don't like the look of the boat. Then again like all owners I am very partial to what I own. Just what is it that makes you so determined to keep knocking this boat?

I am just curious as can be. Did you charter one? I am new here, so it will take a while to get to know people, and figure out where they might be coming from.
Chartered both back to back. The 440 was a delight even with one reef in due to the yaywhos the week before tearing a clew out of the main.
The 420 was a mess around the helm compared to the 440 .......all around NIGHT AND DAY difference.
The 420 was slow, the electrics were unreliable, beds were hard, rode like a rocking horse. The huge generator was noisy. The sugar scoops are too steep. Any kind of wind makes handling difficult with the under powered electrics.......which would mysteriously go half power at critical times.
Really a sorry boat.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:41   #81
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Yes it's a reasonable speed. The only 'production' cats that regularly do much better averages (7 to 8+) on the ARC are Outremer and Catana and even then they need to have a pretty 'committed' driver in command.
As I read the results there were 10 boats that averaged 200 mile days. Nine monos and one multi, the monos ranged in size from 80 to 45 and the one multi that hit the 200 mile per day mark was the Lagoon 67.

The finish times seemed to parallel waterline length but there were outliers. It would be interesting to see a statistical analysis.

A Baltic 58 finished with a Catana 582
A Lagoon 57 finished with a Hylas 54
A Lagoon 440 finsihed with a Beneteau 44.7
Swagman on his Hanse 46 had a very good finish 5 hours after a Catana 471 and 1 hour after another Lagoon 44.

The one that amazes me is the Kerr 11.3 meter that finished 20th averaging 7.4 knots. That is a tough to do in a small displacement boat.

Nice job tracking the entries in the ARC Jeannius, very well done. Can you post the data in a format of average speed and daily run. I have thte raw data but do not know how to make it into and easy to read format. I read that the winds were mostly broad reaching 20-25 knots. Is this accurate Jeannius?
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:27   #82
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Nice job tracking the entries in the ARC Jeannius, very well done. Can you post the data in a format of average speed and daily run. I have thte raw data but do not know how to make it into and easy to read format. I read that the winds were mostly broad reaching 20-25 knots. Is this accurate Jeannius?
I do have the raw data but the owners are quite keen on their copyright so I couldn't post it. Maybe I'll find time to do an analysis and post a summary.

This was the windiest ARC for many years. For the first couple of weeks it never really dropped below 20 and was regularly 30-35 and yes, it was mainly off the stbd quarter. The heavier winds is perhaps one of the reasons why the monos did better than usual as in lighter winds the cats seem to have an advantage. One year, 20010 or 2001 I think, an Outremer took line honours.
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Old 12-02-2008, 15:27   #83
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Chartered both back to back. The 440 was a delight even with one reef in due to the yaywhos the week before tearing a clew out of the main.
The 420 was a mess around the helm compared to the 440 .......all around NIGHT AND DAY difference.
The 420 was slow, the electrics were unreliable, beds were hard, rode like a rocking horse. The huge generator was noisy. The sugar scoops are too steep. Any kind of wind makes handling difficult with the under powered electrics.......which would mysteriously go half power at critical times.
Really a sorry boat.
Badgerman, Just out of curiosity have you chartered any other Lagoons, I would love to hear your comments if you have on the 410, as I like your honest and impartial approach.
Cheers
Ian
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Old 12-02-2008, 22:29   #84
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Badgerman, Just out of curiosity have you chartered any other Lagoons, I would love to hear your comments if you have on the 410, as I like your honest and impartial approach.
Cheers
Ian
Never been on the 41.
Would charter the 440 again though......liked it better than larger Voyagers. The flybridge was great fun.
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Old 13-02-2008, 06:35   #85
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I would love to hear your comments if you have on the 410, as I like your honest and impartial approach.
Cheers
Ian
Ian, I'm not B-man, but I chartered a 410 during my research and I think they are fine boats, especially the S2s. These boats are not as quick as similarly sized FPs, but a WAY better value in my opinion. I'm sorry to see that Lagoon no longer makes this proven model. I think they regressed. If somebody looking for an all around good cat can find an owners version I would recommend serious consideration - depending on individual tastes and desires. A complaint of this model is having the engines under the aft berths. A deal breaker for some. Even the 380 has separate engine compartments. But the downside on the 380 is that this puts the prop aft of the rudder. Yep, another one of those pesky compromises.

Dave
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Old 20-02-2008, 10:16   #86
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Confused after Miami

I just arrived back home in California after traveling to Miami for the boat show. Viewing Cats is virtually impossible on the west coast so up until last week, the only Cats I've been on are a Lagoon 380 and a 440. I've done as much research as possible via the internet, and was pretty set on the 440 until last week. We spent two days doing nothing but looking at all the different brands and came away completley torn between the Lagoon 440 and the Leopard 46. Lots of pros and cons on both but we are absolutely torn between the two. Can anybody give me some insight into these two cats?

Here's what I like on the 440:
1. The large helm up top. Room for 5-6 people and I can see all four corners of the boat from there.
2. Fit and finish - felt superior to the Leopard
3. Comfort in knowing that there have been probably 3 times as many Lagoons sold than Leopards, (or so I'm told).
4. Storage

Here's what I like about the Leopard 46:
1. Aft cockpit size, openess, and trick features like the swing over bench seat off the davits to be used as a swimming or dingy platform.
2. Full size showers in the heads vs. in-head showers on the 440 which would actually let me consider a four cabin layout vs. an owners version
3. Priced I believe very comparable to the 440.

I'm very interested in your feedback.

Gary
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Old 20-02-2008, 10:22   #87
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Both of them are available for charter - maybe even from the same company. Spend a week on both during a two week vacation. I don't know that the relative number sold means anything. There have been far less Gunboats sold than Geminis and I don't think that speaks ill of Gunboat.

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Old 20-02-2008, 10:43   #88
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Confused after Miami

Actually, I forgot to mention that we are chartering the the 440 in June, (BVI) and have inquired about booking a second week on the Leopard 46. Working on the logistics now.

Gary
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Old 20-02-2008, 21:10   #89
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Hi "Confused after Miami",

With regard to the Lagoon 440 vs. Leopard 46 debate, I might be able to offer a few insights. I have owned and captained a Leopard 45 charter cat in the BVI for three years, and see a lot of your two favorite models. In the end, a lot of it is your personal feel for a boat, and don't overlook that gut feeling.

On a more objective level, virtually ALL the delivery skippers that bring either of these boats across the Pond dislike the flybridges, whereas the charterers love them. I would say the delivery guys like the 46 flybridge even less than the 440, as they say they feel isolated and a bit insecure, and getting up on the 46 requires going around the transom which has a huge space without lifelines. Most of them tie lines there before they do significant passages, and I would, too. You might even want to do so when you are sailing in a big ebb out the Golden Gate, for example.

You cannot see the aft corners from the 46 flybridge....not sure about the 440...so backing into a slip is very tough. Additionally, although both Leopard and Lagoon tout their boats as being easy to singlehand, such is not the case when it comes to docking. In fact, with the helm up top, not only are they impossible to dock singlehandedly, but the helmsperson can't easily help to pass lines ashore, a big negative in my opinion. On boats that lack rubrails, which is the case with both, eliminating one person from helping with lines and fenders makes docking against piles even more problematic than usual. That is not an issue with the floating docks that are ubiquitous in the SF Bay area, but it matters in some other areas.

The huge windows on the sides of the hulls of both boats present some problems for positioning fenders, which are not supposed to bear on the windows. The huge salon windows of the Leopard require covers in the hot tropical sun, and the curtains on the Lagoon usually need to be drawn for the same reason. If you are going to stay in the Bay Area, that might not be a problem. Big windows like the Leopard has are often chronic leakers, and that certainly could be a problem in those California winters.

Almost all the 46's here in the BVI have had problems with their saildrives which require haulouts to correct (probably the same thing with the 440, but I don't know that for a fact), their davits (Robertson and Caine has tried a redesign which may work), and a cockpit sole that does not drain well, and in fact creates all sorts of water pooling. The air cooled refrigeration may not do as well in the tropics as is hoped, either. Many of the 46's have had serious stress cracks appear on their delivery trips from South Africa and quite a few other niggling design issues. I honestly don't know if the 440's have had the same issues, but I do know that friends who have run a 500 in charter have been very happy with their boat.

On the other hand, I believe that the 46 is a much better sailor, and that is certainly worth something. I would almost call the 440 a motorsailor, in fact, but charterers do like them. And I think you will find the 46 to be better set up for ongoing maintenance, no small thing.

I should point out that we love our Leopard 45, and have had a good bit of experience skippering the 47's, as well. As devoted Leopard fans, it is thus hard to have to criticize the 46, but it seems as if this new Morelli design is not nearly as robust or as well thought out as the older Simonis designs, sorry to say. Likewise, I am not sure that the newer Lagoons are an improvement, although the 440 is so much bigger than the 410 or much older 42 that a direct comparison is not possible.

All this said, I suspect that either the Lagoon or the Leopard will hold up better than the comparable Fountaine Pajots, at least this has been the case in the past. Historically, the Leopard has been almost indestructible, but we are talking about the older designs. One thing about the boats built for charter....you get to see many more of them and you get a much more accurate idea of how they will perform and hold up. It is like a continuous boat show.

When I read my comments, they seem pretty negative about both boats, and I guess that is how I feel. If you are committed to a new boat, have you considered the slightly smaller Leopard 43? It 's mast will handle the ICW, by the way. Then again, you might find something used that you like more than any of the above. At least, when you visit the BVI, you will have the opportunity to look at lots of cats, new and old. I would take complete advantage of this and not be indelibly entranced with the two models you are currently smitten by....drop me a line when you are in this area, if you like.
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Old 21-02-2008, 05:02   #90
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Leopard 46

To clarify a few points raised about the Leopard 46.

Flybridge
As from June this year all new 46's will have access from the cockpit to the helm without having to go out around the transom. Although no one has seen the drawings yet I think it will be a similar set up to the Orana 44.
Visibilty
I agree the visibility to the port aft quarter is very poor, starboard aft is not too bad. We will be fitting a whip antenna to the port aft guard rail to help as a guide but I agree single handling in a marina would be a challenge but how many people will alone on a boat of this size. I know if I was going to single hand a boat it wouldn't be 46ft by choice, more like a 36ft.
Saildrives
There was a problem with saildrive boots coming off but this was only on Volvo engines not Yanmar that are now standard.
Davits
The original davits were just not man enough for the job and were found to twist under load. The new ones (as fitted to the Miami show boats) are massive in comparison. All boats fitted with the old davits already in use can I believe be changed under warranty to the new.
Cockpit draining.
Again the original 10 or so hulls had a problem with this. You will notice a few of these hulls in charter in the BVI that have a slatted teak floor, this was a temporary fix. The moulds have now now been changed and the drainage is good.
Serious stress cracks?
I spoke with six private L46 owners at length before placing an order for mine to check for such occurances, no problems had been found with anything structural on these 6 boats. I think again it might be the first few hulls that had a minor problem, I know there used to be large storage holes in the beam above the saloon door which are now not there as these were causing some flex on the cabin roof. Gino Morelli (the designer) has been working in Cape Town for nearly 12 months now addressing design issues and improvements. I have a long list of changes that have been made since the hull# I chartered in the BVI all of them correcting the niggling faults that I found during my charter. Whilst at the Miami show I visited Ft Lauderdale where Matt Mason's (NZ America's cup team) L46 had just come out of the water and was being surveyed prior to sale. This boat was launched May 07 and has completed over 12,000 miles, it passed the survey with no problems and I saw no evidence underneath of any stress cracks or repairs.

I like the Lagoon but after sailing both of them I found the L46 was more performance orientated and for us less areas to compromise on than the 440.
Adaero
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