Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-04-2009, 11:17   #211
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
Dockhead: you are seriously misinformed. I DO have the statistics:

SSCA Discussion Board • View topic - Trimaran capsizes off New Zealand! Multi-hull or Mono-hull?

and they do not in the least support your old wives' tales.

If you deliberately mean to provoke and arguement, then provoke away!

But if you care in the least about the facts, the objective reality, read the above.
__________________

__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 12:10   #212
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sail4evr View Post
"tons and tons of reports of multihulls lost at sea (broken up; sunk; or flipped and crew lost)"
Dockhead, You are so wrong. However you have based your statement on your impressions and I won't bother trying to convince you otherwise.
Well I don't have statistics, as I said. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm suffering from an "irrational prejudice". But I think it's no exaggeration to refer to "tons and tons" of reports of capsizes, including many deaths. Why even two of the fathers of multihull yacht design, Arthur Piver and Hedley Nichols, died in their own multihulls offshore. Scary!

Rose Noelle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Noonsite: Two Missing from Capsized Cat off Madagascar

Father Missing Off Madagascar - Queequeg Ii Capsized! - World Cruising and Sailing Forums

Alinghi X40 catamaran capsize - OPPS! - Live Yachting

30ft Catamaran Backlash II capsized

Iroquois Capsize in the Solent

https://www.latsandatts.net/forum/vi...06c8e0058d6c9d

Latitude 38 - The West's Premier Sailing & Marine Magazine



2005 STC Safety-At-Sea

Sail World - Powerboat-world: Sail and sailing, cruising, boating news

Sailor survives storm in capsized catamaran - Wetsand.com

Allianz Marine and Aviation Yachts ::Catamaran capsize

Blogs » catamaran capsize catabatic catastrophe » LuvMyBoat.com

Alinghi X40 catamaran capsize - OPPS! - Live Yachting

http://www.wharram.com/Escape%20Hatch%20proposal.pdf

https://piersystem.com/go/doc/586/15...nterfriendly=1

Groupama 3: Capsize off New Zealand



"Later, Groupama-2 pitchpoled (apparently) and capsized (definitely). Here’s a write-up from sail-world.com: At around 1750 GMT tonight, the 60ft multihull Groupama-2
The prevailing conditions at the time were classic Trade wind 25 – 30 knots from the North East. The trimaran was sailing downwind and it is presumed that therefore the hull pitchpoled on capsize but this is not confirmed.
What we do know is that Franck Proffit was at the helm and was thrown violently forward, and has possibly broken his ribs. A helicopter has been sent from the Canaries to the zone to pick up Franck Proffit from the boat in order to give him immediate medical assistance.
Franck Cammas is staying on board in order to commence a salvage operation for the boat with his shore team. Groupama-2 had been pushing hard all day after their 5 hour pit-stop in Santo Porto at Madeira between 0400 – 0900 hrs local time this morning to repair their steering and rudder systems, and had been clocking average boat speeds over 25+ knots.
That brings to 5 (of 10) abandonments in the 60-foot trimarans of the ORMA class. Also retiring have been two of the Open 50 trimarans, and one of the Open 50 monohulls. So far the boats of the remaining class (Open 60 monohulls) have not suffered any retirements.

SoCalSail » Multihulls





As one multihull fan and multifull world cruiser put it:

"If you buy a heavy multihull then there is a good argument for buying a monohull. If you lose or sign away one of the multihulls advantages over a monohull then the monohull case becomes stronger while the multihull case is weakened."

Sailing Multihulls in Heavy Weather

__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 12:12   #213
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
There is a brand new Nautitech 44 listed on yachtworld for $496,462.00 USD sailaway (albeit not equipped for world cruising), which seems quite competitive.

In terms of analyzing the Lagoon 44 as against the Nautitech and FP43, to me the entry seems finer and the beam of the hulls considerably narrower in both of the latter two boats; further, the windage will undoubtedly be less in either, as will the center of gravity and center of effort of the sailplans. The bridgedeck clearance of both boats actually appears to be greater than on the Lagoon, apart from the Catana-type inboard knuckles on the Nautitech. Certainly the FP43 has greater minimum clearance and a cleaner underbody. Further, the accomodation (and hence weight) seems to have been pushed less far forward and aft in either of these boats than on the Lagoon. All of these features should prove advantageous to the Nautitech and FP in terms of seaworthiness and performance under sail and anchor (albeit not at dockside - and you have to love the accomodation in the Lagoon 44).

The twin helms aft on the Nautitech? I too have some difficulty with that notion, albeit still preferring it to the flying bridge on the Lagoon 44 (which not only isolates the helmsperson from the crew/social center of the boat, but also contributes to the raised CG and CE already referred to). Best of all worlds, in my view, is the set-up on the FP43 which permits visibility forward by not only the helmsperson, but all occupants of the cockpit (rather than facing a ventilation/vision stealing wall as in the Lagoon and Nautitech).

Two other dimensions that should be considered when comparing these three boats is BOA and bridge clearance (especially if one intends to use the ICW, which generally permits a maximum height of 65 feet). I note the L44 shows a maximum beam of 25.3 feet, as opposed to the Nautitech at 22.34 and the FP43 at 21.8. The greater the beam, the more difficult it is to find docking/haul-out facilities; further, beam to length ratios in excess of 2-1 tend to increase the boats tendancy to pitchpole (by decreasing fore/aft stability); finally, required bridgedeck height is most commonly expressed as being inversely proportional to beam, rather than length. Make no mistake, there are some negatives associated with the significantly increased beam on the L44. One can only assume that this beam was designed not merely to increase interior accomodation, but to counteract the increased CG and CE that was brought about by the flying bridge (and this I suspect it does - I imagine that the capsize resistance is virtually as good on the Lagoon as on the other boats, albeit at the expense of the other things already mentioned).

The bridge clearance for the FP43 is listed as 63' (appropriate for the ICW), while the L44 is listed at 69.4'. Nautitech does not seem to list bridge clearance, but posts the height of the mast as 49.87 feet; assuming that it is stepped no more than 8 - 10 feet above the waterline, that would leave a bridge clearance of no more than 60 feet - again, appropriate for the ICW.

A couple of other observations: the teak toe rail on the Lagoon will prove to be a relatively high maintenance item and, the split-height side decks will make movement forward and aft less simple (and potentially less safe) than on either the Nautitech or the FP.

At the end of the day, in my opinion there is no clear-cut 'winner' between these three boats. The prospective purchaser should not only try to sail them in varying conditions, but also be honest in assessing what will likely be their ultimate use; simply put, I suspect that few will really be taking their boats on significant offshore passages. However, once an analysis is done, as is often said, you should consider 'different horses for different courses'.

I have little doubt that the Lagoon 44 is a seaworthy vessel quite capable of offshore passages; I also have little doubt that she will be a little less suited to that role than either the FP43, or the Nautitech 44. Due to the increased interior space, the L44 will be a better boat dockside and, for many, a better boat for Florida/Bahamas/most Caribbean cruising; she will, however, be incapable of transiting the ICW for those who are so inclined.

And as to appearance? I won't go there: lets just say that to a significant degree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 12:22   #214
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Dockhead, this thread was not intended for 'cat' bashing, irrational or otherwise. If you'd like, you can start another thread dedicated to comparing apples and oranges in order to attack the seaworthiness of catamarans (something that has already been beaten to death on this site). But this thread is in relation to a specific cat (the Lagoon 44) and has been expanded into comparisons of that specific cat with others on the market. Full stop. It is not a discussion on cats versus monos, anymore than questions concerning the attributes of a specific monohull (say a westsail 32) should bring on discussions of the relative merits of racing mulithulls. Both are obviously more than merely 'thread drift'.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 12:32   #215
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Dockhead, this thread was not intended for 'cat' bashing, irrational or otherwise. If you'd like, you can start another thread dedicated to comparing apples and oranges in order to attack the seaworthiness of catamarans (something that has already been beaten to death on this site). But this thread is in relation to a specific cat (the Lagoon 44) and has been expanded into comparisons of that specific cat with others on the market. Full stop. It is not a discussion on cats versus monos, anymore than questions concerning the attributes of a specific monohull (say a westsail 32) should bring on discussions of the relative merits of racing mulithulls. Both are obviously more than merely 'thread drift'.

Brad
My apologies! I did not intend to bash or attack anything or anyone. I was just following a theme raised by another post, and expressing my own subjective -- and I qualified them as that -- fears.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 12:50   #216
Registered User
 
careka's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Egersund,Norway
Boat: Lagoon380 Comfort#637
Posts: 704
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to careka
Yes, we will try to find the one we like, so this summer we have rented a FP lavezzi 40 out of Athens. Sins we only have been sailing monos all the time and never tryed Multi befor, we will start on this one.
i want speed, and my wife(admiral) wants space.
so i will also try to read all i can come over to get info on cats.
And the Outreamer looks like the one for me. Or even better the TRT1200, thats a fast cat.
But "admiral" will have Nautitech, she likes the woodwork and layout, also the FP Orana 44 she likes. the Lagoon 440 she liked also, but since we live in Scandinavis, we have colder weather, so the flyB will be a cold place to be.
But we will take our time and se where we end up.
__________________
careka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 13:42   #217
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BVIs
Boat: Lagoon 440, Sea Of Love
Posts: 60
High Ken, there is one other that I know of. The Voyage 440 that was in a hurry to get to the boat show in Washington and ran into a storm on the way. That skipper was advised by many not to go. It was a few years back.
__________________
sail4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:00   #218
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BVIs
Boat: Lagoon 440, Sea Of Love
Posts: 60
Well Dockhead...I took exception to your words that tons and tons of reports of cats breaking up. I never denied that there are occaisions of them flipping. In your counter the only cats that broke up were racing cats and far outside the criteria for a cruising cat. Not to mention among your tons of sources you duplicated many reports of the same boat a number of times. None of the cruising cats in your sources broke up or sank which was my point. In fact people were rescued from all of them with a small number actually losing thier lives. And those that did were not wearing harnesses and lifejackets. So you can not really blame the boat if they were swept away. A monohull that rolls will come up short of any crew not so tethered.
__________________
sail4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:13   #219
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BVIs
Boat: Lagoon 440, Sea Of Love
Posts: 60
Brad, A very nice review. I might add that the lagoon 440 flybridge has room for 6-8 people depending on people's girth. This allows most of the party to join the helmsperson up top, countering your thoughts of isolation. I have spent many hours up there with a load of people while sailing and it is truly very nice. It also provides another semi-private space for people to go to when they want while dockside.

By the way my teak toe rail is greying rather nicely with no additional maintenance required so far. (4 years) and goes nicely with my grey hatch cover UV protectors. Of course grey goes with most any color.
__________________
sail4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:19   #220
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sail4evr View Post
Well Dockhead...I took exception to your words that tons and tons of reports of cats breaking up. I never denied that there are occaisions of them flipping. In your counter the only cats that broke up were racing cats and far outside the criteria for a cruising cat. Not to mention among your tons of sources you duplicated many reports of the same boat a number of times. None of the cruising cats in your sources broke up or sank which was my point. In fact people were rescued from all of them with a small number actually losing thier lives. And those that did were not wearing harnesses and lifejackets. So you can not really blame the boat if they were swept away. A monohull that rolls will come up short of any crew not so tethered.
I read the link from Sandy Daughtery, which did have actual statistics which do seem to show that there are not more deaths associated with multihulls, and I read carefully your response. Maybe you're right.

Your cats still scare me! My one experience as a skipper on a multihull was when I chartered a Norseman 430 in the Windward Islands a couple of years ago, and sailed it across the Bequia Channel when the current was running against the strong easterly trade wind and kicking up a swell. It scared the s**t out of me because I couldn't tell -- it didn't heel -- how loaded up the whole rig was. I reefed and reefed until I was sure, but then the boat wallowed. I couldn't tell what a dangerous wave height was. I guess it could just be a case of unfamiliarity, but I felt profoundly insecure.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:40   #221
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BVIs
Boat: Lagoon 440, Sea Of Love
Posts: 60
Dockhead, I wasn't there, but I think you responded appropriately.
__________________
sail4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:42   #222
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BVIs
Boat: Lagoon 440, Sea Of Love
Posts: 60
Dockhead, remeber the Australian monohull in the Americas Cup. Broke up and sank in about 3 minutes. That is what I mean about comparing racing boats to cruising.
__________________
sail4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:45   #223
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Boat: Lagoon 440 - Agape'
Posts: 35
Creka,

Please note that the Lagoon 440 has a great interior helm set-up at the nav station. Also, in the analysis of the mast heights (which I doubt worries you, but may be of concern to U.S. buyers), it's true that the standard rig for the Lagoon 440 is 70' above the waterline. However, Lagoon offers an ICW version - which I DO NOT recommend as it reduces the sail area of the mainsail by 160 sq.ft. and also the headsails as well! The reason for this is that in their ICW option, Lagoon simply lowered the whole rig.

I worked with Lagoon and the Doyle Sail loft in Ft. Lauderdale to solve the problem in a much better way. I had noticed that all of the shrouds and headsail rigging are approximately 8' below the top of the standard rig. Lagoon sent a schematic for the local rigging shop to take 7' off the top of the standard mast and re-attach the masthead, instruments, etc. Doyle cut the top of the main in a squared-off configuration, supporting it with a diagonal batten (just like all of the America's Cup boats in the recent races near Barcelona). We ended up losing only about 30 sq.ft. from the main and nothing from any of the headsails (in addition to the standard genoa, we carry 2 different sized gennakers and a large asymetrical spinnaker). In short, we basically changed our rig from a "fractional" rig to a "masthead" rig.

I heartedly concur about trying any boat you are interested in. Most of the popular cats are available in the various charter fleets. Enjoy the process.
__________________
Kaptain Ken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 14:58   #224
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BVIs
Boat: Lagoon 440, Sea Of Love
Posts: 60
What a great idea Ken, How much did that option cost you if I may ask?
__________________
sail4evr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2009, 15:04   #225
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by sail4evr View Post
Dockhead, remeber the Australian monohull in the Americas Cup. Broke up and sank in about 3 minutes. That is what I mean about comparing racing boats to cruising.
Yes, your point is well taken.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lagoon, Lagoon 440

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
440: Lagoon 440 or 500 - Anyone Sailing these Models ? videorov Lagoon Catamarans 12 28-04-2017 16:35
440: Lagoon 440 Performance ? dirkdig Lagoon Catamarans 164 02-10-2015 15:41
440: Lagoon 440 Owners Gobu123 Lagoon Catamarans 9 19-11-2012 23:23
Wanted: Lagoon 440 Owners Version milan Classifieds Archive 0 20-11-2009 14:24



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.