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Old 26-02-2016, 10:38   #1
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Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

We are looking closely at purchasing a 2004 lagoon 440. We have now learned the following:

- the mainsail is destroyed and must be replaced

- there is no hardware or running rigging/halyards for spinnaker or gennaker

- no one knows what type Yanmar saildrive is installed (the boat is a not near us or the listing agent and the owner doesn't have time to check)

Have any or you Lagoon 440 owners:

- replaced the mainsail? If so how much did it cost?

- installed all the gear and running rigging for spinnaker or gennaker?

- is it TRUE that a 440 came from the factory with none of the equipment needed for a flying headsail?

- purchased a new spinnaker or gennaker? If so how much?

- know for sure if there is an SD40 or SD50 installed with the Yanmar 4JH-TE (75 HP) engine? If I read the Yanmar doc correctly it would be the SD50 but...

I am concerned about the saildrives because it is rumoured that the cone clutches were replaced several years ago but there is no firm documentation.
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Old 26-02-2016, 13:55   #2
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Re: Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

Sail replacement will depend on Manufacture, Design and materials used. Estimate between 5 and 8 thou USD.

"- is it TRUE that a 440 came from the factory with none of the equipment needed for a flying headsail?" by Head sail I assume you mean Gennaker / A-symetric not Furling Genoa. This was a customer ordered Option.

Spinnaker gear, do you have a bow sprit installed or not? The Bow sprit cost me 2.5K USD to have supplied and fitted to my L450 after market. Then you need Halyard and running rigging.

If you have no bow sprit look at Parasailor as an alternative would then be competitive in price with an A-Sail / Gennaker and Bow sprit and rigging.

Cone clutches are not an issue, just have them lapped, clearance set and good to go.

I currently own a L421 with SD40 and L450 with SD50.

SD 40's lapped (due to slipping) at 500, 1500 and 3,200 hours so far (its a charter boat) SD50's I had lapped at 450 hours (No issue at that point done as preventative maintenance) now at 650 hours.
Cost me an extra $ 500 USD for both motors, done during normal engine service.

My pricing is based on converted Oz Dollar quotes and bills.

L440 is a very nice boat good luck with the purchase, hope this helps some.
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:19   #3
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Re: Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

There is no bowsprit installed.

There appear to be only two halyards on the boat (main & genoa)

I don't have any experience on catamarans but decades of working foredecks on monohulls including a lot of cruising miles on our 40' cutter. I am not sure what I am asking for but want a sail arrangement that works efficiently, can be handled by one old fart, and easily in:

5 - 15 knots from apparent wind angles of 60 to 140 degrees

another sail that works in apparent wind of 90 to 160 degrees up to 20 or so knots

I would prefer something like our big 2.2 ounce Code 0 (as it is called on my 40' cutter) that flies on it's own internal halyard and furls with a drum.

I assume one needs a bowsprit to get the tack out in front of the cross beam. And, a separate halyard to hoist on. Additionally, does there need to be a swivel on the block at the masthead?

I understand the bowsprit was an option with the L440 so can I just order one from Lagoon?
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:51   #4
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Re: Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

The Lagoon 440 was built from 2004 through to 2010 with a total of 423 built. You may be able to purchase from Lagoon, but my guess would say probably easier and cheaper and quicker to go aftermarket.

Additionally, does there need to be a swivel on the block at the masthead?
Halyard exits at top of mast over a block down to a swiveling block mounted just above fore stay attachment on mast.

My L450 although not fitted with Halyard and bow sprit from Factory had the Halyard entry already in mast, mast head pulley leading down to the swiveling sheath bellow already installed on mast. So only required a rigger at $200 and suitable halyard $160 to get that installed. Then a new turning block at base of mast and run back to a new clutch in cockpit. (another $350 dollars worth of bits) plus install.
Also had the fitting already on the crossbar to take the bow sprit.

You need to know for sure what is and what is not already installed on the mast. My guess because it is an early boat the only way to know is have it inspected to ascertain what will be required to add the extra halyard.

Just because a 2010 boat has the mast fittings fitted as standard is no guarantee that a 2004 one will have.

The bow sprit cost of fitting the 2 x pad eyes into the hulls was 1/3 of the supply and fit cost.
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Old 26-02-2016, 15:15   #5
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Re: Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

Thanks for the good information

It is beginning to appear that the boat was never really used for sailing and none of the necessary equipment was added for lighter air work.

We are pretty serious sailors when out cruising and want to be able to comfortably deal with the 4 to 10 knots wind that is so common in our preferred sailing area.

We've sailed from Seattle to San Diego (1,200NM) four times, San Diego to Puerto Vallarta and back twice (2,000 NM round trip) and spent three years cruising in Western Mexico while covering about 4,000 NM. My detailed records show the sailing wind to be less than 8-knots over 60% of the time in all those miles.

It sounds like it could get pretty expensive to add the necessary gear/rigging/halyards and sails (approximate costs?)

$1,000 masthead rigging and halyard
$2,500 bow sprit, sheets, blocks
$6,000 RF code 0
$5,000 Asym spinnaker
$8,000 Fully batten good quality main

And, the seller wants a premium price, compared to the SE US, because the boat is in California.
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Old 26-02-2016, 15:59   #6
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Re: Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

That looks realistic and remembering it is never less always more on a boat.
Also the fact the Rigging is now 12 years old you need to factor in at least a thorougher inspection if not some or all replacement.
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Old 26-02-2016, 16:25   #7
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Re: Lagoon 440 new mainsail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
We are looking closely at purchasing a 2004 lagoon 440. We have now learned the following:

- the mainsail is destroyed and must be replaced

- there is no hardware or running rigging/halyards for spinnaker or gennaker

- no one knows what type Yanmar saildrive is installed (the boat is a not near us or the listing agent and the owner doesn't have time to check)

Have any or you Lagoon 440 owners:

- replaced the mainsail? If so how much did it cost?
The variables include: where do you want it made (local sail maker Vs SE Asian direct import, fabric (cruising dacron is cheap, quality hydranet is expensive, laminates vary from expensive to very expensive), Cut (a quality tri-radial cut will add to the cost), battens (are yours reusable), hardware (do you have the truning blocks for the reefling points at the leach). I'd be thinking US$5 for your cheapest option up to $15K for top quality gear. The genoa would be say 40%

- installed all the gear and running rigging for spinnaker or gennaker?
A SPI or ASI is the easiest and cheapest option for you as technically you don't have to have a bow sprint (although this will reduce capability when desiring to sail a shallow reach, when one would centre the tack to the midline sprint and tightly tension the luff). Provided you standard rigging is up to scratch (you must get this checked as there are significant costs if not), both can be masthead rigged without the need to fit a halyard block/lead to the mast (a screecher/gennaker would usually be fractionally rigged with a lead/block located a foot or so above the genoa/forestay given the significant loads these sails bear with tensioned luff when pushing somewhat upwind). You would need two 75mm Big Boat blocks ($100 each) for the two tack lines. There will be already mounted padeyes on the bows adjacent to the cross bean join where these block can be mounted. The tack lines then effectively create a bridle to control, and position the tack. These can be fed directly back over the coach top to the primary winches (more elaborate and tidier strategies can be done at cost). As the boat has only three primary winches, and the sheet will need the one on its side, the more working tack line needs to be on the mainsail handling winch and the more lazy tack line on the unused outboard winch. So it's doable for lest say $3K for the ASI/sock, $500 for the halyard and sheets (in 14mm double braid) and $200 in blocks. To make it more workable with better less cluttered runs for the lines etc, add $500.

Now if your want some upwind performance for either the ASI or a screecher, you will need the sprint. Don't go cheap here. Have it prepared by a good rigger and pay the bucks as the loads on this are very significant especially if you are trying to make 70 degrees AWA with 15-18kts TWS with a screecher. Paul's quote sounds about right to me for this bit of kit.


- is it TRUE that a 440 came from the factory with none of the equipment needed for a flying headsail?
The sprint was a factory option as was the sail. I have the original Incidences screecher, still in good shape after 11 years. The padeyes are there from the factory, The blocks need to be purchased. You might need to have a payeye or two added aft aft the rail if you want to run the tack lines that way to avoid mess, as the existing one will be used by the sheet of any and all the flying sails

- purchased a new spinnaker or gennaker? If so how much?
As stated, it depends, but $3K for a cheap SPI/ASI,perhaps $4K for a quality screecher

- know for sure if there is an SD40 or SD50 installed with the Yanmar 4JH-TE (75 HP) engine? If I read the Yanmar doc correctly it would be the SD50 but...
Not sure as I have the 54HP non turbo engines which came with the SD40s. That being said, I currently have on SD50 and one SD40 as I suffered a broken main shaft in the now replaced SD40 and chose to replace with a reconditioned SD50 rather than repair the SD40. It was just a matter of cost/effort/time/parts/location of the event. The essentially are the same footprint. Both will need infrequent repair/service to the clutch/cones, which in the scheme of boat ownership is relatively inexpensive - perhaps $500-700 with a mechanic, $250 as a DIY.

I am concerned about the saildrives because it is rumoured that the cone clutches were replaced several years ago but there is no firm documentation.
Hope this helps.
Once you decide this is the boat for you, ou really must invest some potentially unrecoverable dollars and get the rigging checked/certified, and pay a mechanic and a marine electrician to give you a genuine exhaustive critique. I mention the marine electrician, and the electrics can be an unexpected otherwise unanticipated hidden cost is there are issues. I bit of salt water on the wiring harness and 3 years latter you have the beginnings f a big big problem.

Good luck.
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