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Old 29-09-2009, 10:05   #16
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Boat: Lagoon 420 -Avanga
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asb,

My Lagoon 420 is not listed for sale, although I did consider selling when my new child arrived. The offers have come unsolicited. I don't believe suggesting that someone check their facts prior to posting is aggressive, just common sense. Someday, when you own a boat you enjoy, you might understand the response to baseless claims of "dumping." ALL boat sales are under some stress.

ess- Charter is covering 75%+ of ownership costs. Not ideal but quite helpful while I wait for the little one to become a bit more manageable. TMM is a great outfit. I highly recommend them.

I do agree with Intentional Drifter's critique of Lagoon's very misleading 420 introduction. We experienced it together and I am still bitter.

-John
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Old 29-09-2009, 17:12   #17
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A couple of points here. Yanmar 40's will burn a bit more fuel then quoted. A Voyage 440 plus will burn about 1.1 gallons per hour doing about 6.5 knots on one engine. It will burn about 2 gallons per hour doing 8.5 knots on two engines. Fuel consumption on the genset is about .3 gallons per hour running the AC and battery charger. I don't think the excess fuel consumption on the 420 is from cruising underway. The problem from a charter boat standpoint is using a very large genset for house needs like AC. That is what accounts for the very high weekly fuel burns on the charter boats. Most charters use the AC every night all night.
The bigger problem with the boat in charter has been reliability and the lack of really qualified people in the islands to work on the boats. It would be interesting to find out how many 420's have already had complete battery replacements. I know of two occasions in the BVI where the boats were dead in the water. One boat was on a lee shore and without a timely tow could have been badly damaged. It appears that if the genset quits running the actual motoring time available is really 15 minutes not hours when the batteries are a few years old. The genset is also a standard marine genset. It is not a propulsion rated motor. Gensets on charter boats are always fickle. I have never had a main engine fail me even on a older charter boat. I can't remember how many times a generator quit. Cyclying a generator on and off is also very bad for long term lifespan. They like to be turned on and left on. I think the real solution to the electric boat lies in using two gensets. One a smaller one for house loads and emergency power to the engines and the other a larger genset for main engine power and rapid battery recharges if needed.
George
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Old 30-09-2009, 06:53   #18
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Just to add a little twist to the proceedings.....
I am also a lover of the 420, in my opinion she's a lovely looking boat, with some great features. However I have been following the discussions on another forum, and it appears that when Lagoon were designing the 420, they tried to incorporate design features for a power hull aswell as a sail hull into one twin hull design, which if it worked would save the factory a considerable amount of money. One would have thought more 'sail' hulls would have been sold over the course of the build run, therefore more onus should have been given to this design rather than the 'power' side. This hull profile appears to cause quite abit of disturbance at the stern of the boat, which several of the owners have complained about. However if I'm honest, this wouldn't put me off buying a 420 as it has several features I like, namely the raised bimini, as it gives great air-flow into the cock-pit area, when the screens are removed, this has been a major concern for several people I know who have sailed in the tropics, the lack of air-flow. On the 421 the bimini has been dropped to meet the coach roof and to me looks like a 'Bolt-on' extra with a cut out for the helmsman to look over with a upturned pram for protection!
This idea works alot better on the 400, which at least looks like it was designed to be this way, not an after thought!

These are just my thoughts put on paper, please don't shoot me down, however I would appreciate any constructive criticism as for me I only intend to spend this type of money on a boat once and I'd prefer to get it right!

Happy sailing one and all.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:50   #19
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Would just like to revive this discussion as this is one of my target boats.. and also to pose a couple more angles to this discussion:

1) How do 420's compare to FP Orana's 44's other than Length
- I understand the FPs are faster and lighter
- It appears the FPs are much more expensive ?

2) Can the performance of the 420's be improved with modest changes
- could you add more sail
- using diesels vs hybreds are they still really poor performers...

I am not looking for a speed demon... comfort trumps speed, I can settle for half the apparent wind speed... so 5kts in 10 kts of wind which is probably optimistic for a 420 eh...

Just some Sunday morning musings...
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:07   #20
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Adding more sail does improve things for sure. The original 420s had quite a small sail area for their size - a bit like having half a reef in all the time - and this was upped in later hull numbers. The 'genaker' lagoon sold a few folks was also undersized. We have a Code Zero which I confess we haven't used much. It definitely improves performance but except for a few occasions down the Caribbean we haven't felt it worth the bother as we were getting where we wanted soon enough. Over the next year we're going to be putting in a *lot* more miles - we're heading to NZ after all - and will certainly put this sail to greater use on the longer crossings.
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Old 04-10-2009, 15:54   #21
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Saw Dignity yesterday. Getting a nice polish. When do you go back in the water?
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Old 04-10-2009, 16:04   #22
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Are you in the yard? We're due in the water tomorrow (5th) although we may, regretably, push a day cos we just ran out of compound and haven't finished one of the jobs we're doing today.
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Old 04-10-2009, 20:26   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ess105 View Post
Over the next year we're going to be putting in a *lot* more miles - we're heading to NZ after all - and will certainly put this sail to greater use on the longer crossings.

Thanks...you will have to keep us posted as the daily rates you get on that longer trip...

BTW, if you don't mind, now that you have been using your 420 for awhile, what do you think a guy should budget for maintance for this vessel... i would be getting the diesel version...

Cheers
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:59   #24
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We're running at around 5% of value but we've put a lot into the boat in the last year both in terms of initial prep and then getting ready for the longer trip. I'm anticipating this to go down next year as we've just about run out of ideas for one offs and spares.
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Old 05-10-2009, 07:58   #25
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Gensets on charter boats are always fickle. I have never had a main engine fail me even on a older charter boat. I can't remember how many times a generator quit.
So what have you done to determine whether or not this is down to genset quality or maintenance? Or are you of the oppinion that charter companies put in as much time an effort on genset preventative maintenance (if a genset fails you can always run the alternator to charge up house bank) as they do for drive motors (which requires a call out)?

If you talk to a good selection of folks who look after their own boats full time I would be astonished if you came to the same conclusion.

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Cyclying a generator on and off is also very bad for long term lifespan. They like to be turned on and left on.
What is your point here? I know that the hybrid 420s will do this if you leave them to deplete their batteries down to 60%. But no owner I know lets this happen. When you know you're going to motor sail everyone I know, including myself, turns on the generator manually. The electric only propulsion is used to get you in and out of places and is a nice backup (just in case) the genset fails - which they don't if properly used and maintained. Ultimately it also serves as a huge resource of on board power for use at anchor that can be rapidly charged when running the genset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
I think the real solution to the electric boat lies in using two gensets. One a smaller one for house loads and emergency power to the engines and the other a larger genset for main engine power and rapid battery recharges if needed.
George
If you lack alternate energy inputs and/or are desperate to use A/C frequently then this is one way of doing it although a small genset is pointless for emergency engine power. Personally I think adding more oil burning components to charge up your house bank on a hybrid boat and/or using A/C all the time defeats the point. We have covered this gap through use of solar panels on the very excellent bimini top. We *only* use the genset at anchor when running the washing machine and during this time we catch up with any charging. The rest of the time we don't run a thing and exist in silence. I do not envy the folks around us who have to run their gensets for several hours per day.
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Old 05-10-2009, 15:36   #26
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Hey Mike (Jeannius) - great to see you again. Funny spot to run into each other eh?

Good luck with you haul in the morning. Maybe I'll have the dinghy in the water by then.

We were delayed getting into the water as the catamaran splashed in front of us had problems with *both* diesel engines. One case doesn't make a rule but given recent comments the irony is there. We motored out on the electrics (which we'd easily tested before splashing). Genset fired up ok for it's test once we were on the hook.
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Old 05-10-2009, 15:52   #27
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Ess, I think you missed a key point of my post. I referenced charter boats. I realize use is different from a owners standpoint. There are a couple of points however. Engines built for propulsion are built to a different standard then those for a genset in most cases. In fact one of the early electric engine option cats made a big point that they had the only propulsion rated diesel driving their genset.
The problem with the 420 in charter is that the boat is rental. They get abused. Its sounds like your experience with the 420 has been excellent and that is great. That is however not the case for many of the other 420's. Many owers have spent a inordinate amount of time and effort dealing with problem with the propulsion system. Many boats have had battery issues and had to make very expensive complete battery bank changes. Many boats have had electric components fail that shut down the system. If you look at the average Diesel charterboat that is 5 years old most never suffer any propulsion system problems. I am on my second charterboat and have never had a engine issue. The 420's in charter have not performed anywhere near that level. Again yours is a private boat so you take better care of things and it sounds like you have had no problems. One of the reasons that the 420 came out with the diesel option was the charter companies demanded it after dealing with the initial boats.
I am actually not against the system. In 2 more years I will be looking for a new boat. I would love to see the technology get there in the next two years where I could be comfortable with a electric boat. At the moment I don't think its going to get there. Perhaps in 7 or 8 years it might be there for me and I will get a electric boat. There is going to have to be quite a learning curve however and the old issues of salt and electrics will always be lurking.
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Old 05-10-2009, 21:09   #28
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Nothing really

I would like to make a couple more points about the 420. One, before my new baby arrived, I had a decent cash offer for my 420, but after my wife spent a few weeks aboard she did not want to sell, MY DRAG-ABOARD WIFE said no! We were seven people total and completely comfortable for weeks. Wonderful sailing. The kind motion, and vee hull, make what would be rough sailing relaxing. You probably pay a knot for the comfort but that is a trade I would take any day.

I don't want to post anything related to the hybrid as I have not experienced this boat, but the diesel version has a few thousand pounds less weight in the transoms and this may make a difference. She sails fine for such a lovely condo.

Also, there have been posts here about Lagoon quality. Let me say that after crossing the Atlantic and over a year in charter we have spent virtually nothing on unexpected maintenance. My Dad broke the shower door which cost me a few hundred and the shower sump pump died. I pay for all repairs and TMM makes money repairing things so I know how Avanga is holding up.

I don't like the steep transoms and can see too much turbulence in the sterns. Does this matter? I guess we need to race a 421.

L420s are tons of comfortable cruising catamaran for the money. Take your wife she'll love it. Seems many forum members have a bias against comfort. It is cruising after all.

-John
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Old 01-12-2009, 18:52   #29
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I have a Lagoon 420 diesel version which I purchased last year new so my comments don't apply to the Hybrid. I've sailed the Bahamas this year for 4 months (including two Gulf crossings) and have participate in 3 different sailing regattas for cruising catamarans. Not a vast amount of experience but it's growing everyday. The boat has generator, AC, and watermaker so it's not light but still weighs much less than the Hybrid version. In the Harvest Moon Regatta last year, a 150 mile offshore race, I made the trip in 18 hours. The wind was 15-17 knts and behind the beam most of the trip with a following sea. Perfect for the Genakor. We were able to hit 10-11 knots at times surfing down waves. We beat all other cruising cats except a Lagoon 440 which beat us by about an hour and a half. I'm not bragging but wanted folks to know that the 420 deisel version, although slower than some cats, can still perform much better than the 6-7 knots in a 20 knot breeze quoted earlier. Last week in 10-11 knot winds I was about to sail 6-7 knots with the wind 55 degrees off the bow. In lighter wind I can usually get half the wind speed with the exception of directly downwind.

As for the quality of Lagoon build I haven't had any serious problems with my boat and feel that they have put a lot into the the boat.

Ken Marrs
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Old 01-12-2009, 20:53   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capcook View Post
Would just like to revive this discussion as this is one of my target boats.. and also to pose a couple more angles to this discussion:

1) How do 420's compare to FP Orana's 44's other than Length
- I understand the FPs are faster and lighter
- It appears the FPs are much more expensive ?
I think FP's are a little less expensive, however they are lighter and hence faster.

For example, the new Lagoon 400 has a similar sail plan to my Lavezzi 40 (950 vs 975 sq ft) but the Lagoon carries an additional 4000 kg of weight (10.3T vs 6.5T). So, it shouldn't be any surprise as to which boat will be slower. On the other hand, the Lagoon has so much more space than my Lavezzi that it's quite hard to believe they're both 40 ft long (though the lagoon is about 2.5 ft wider).

To be fair, I think Lagoon is trying to build a different boat than FP. The Lagoon is basically a motor sailor which is very popular for the charter market and a for a number of cruisers. It provides a huge amount of living space in a very reasonably priced package. The Lavezzi is actually about the size of the Lagoon 380 inside but due to her relatively smaller accommodations she's light and therefore sails well.

The point being: You can have either sailing performance or remarkable luxury in a 40 footer but not both. That's simply the basic physics of the game.

I'm not sure why all the angst about Lagoons: The Lagoon 400 is a fine boat which is IMHO really a very good motor sailer. Obviously if you absolutely have to sail everywhere (and faster) it's not the right boat but from the comments above, many are looking for a happy compromise between budget, luxury and a bit of fun sailing.
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