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Old 01-11-2016, 22:57   #1141
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harl View Post
Having been looking at the Lagoon 420 as a strong possibility close to part retirement. The starboard helm is preferable for my pontoon, I like the idea of accessing the bunks on either side, the full hard cover over the cockpit and minimum crew requirement. For me, if it is not a quick boat, I'm not particularly fussed if it has most of the other features that fit the bill. Are there any pitfalls with this boat that people do not typically know about?
Greetings Harl and welcome to the forum

I've owned a Lagoon 420 Hybrid since 2007 and my list of 'pitfalls' is short.
  • The mechanism on the sliding saloon doors may fail eventually. It's cheap but fiddly to repair.
  • If the steering seems heavy then the rudder linkage may be partially seized and could fail. I've known a few fail, but it's easy to check and not too expensive to replace (150/$200/200)
  • The helm seat of the 2007/8 versions are poorly designed
  • The velcro holding the saloon cushions in place is inadequate, particularly for the seat closest to the sliding saloon door, which gets a lot of traffic
  • If the saloon hatches are left open when it rains then rainwater will run over the roof and into the saloon
  • In the same way, the helm position collects rainwater when it rains. you can channel the water away by some form of channelling, but we just sit elsewhere when it rains.
  • The struts on the Lewmar hatches in the forward cabins tend to fail.
  • The blinds on the Lewmar hatches tend to fail regularly, because the springs corrode.
  • If you are 6ft(1.8m) or more you'll hit your head a few times on the bimini when accessing the side decks from the cockpit, until you get used to it. Likewise when stepping into the heads from the cabins, owing to the doors being bizarrely shorter than the cabin doors.
  • The Genoa tends to fail at the luff after a few thousand miles (we've got through two sails after major repairs in 15,000 sea miles). Perhaps it is down to the way we set the sails, who knows?
  • The thermo couple on the gas oven supplied by Lagoon fail repeatedly.
  • Lookout for corrosion at the swaying on the main stays
  • Be careful not to lose sail battens when raising or lowering the mainsail or reefing; they tend to jump out of the cars

Other than that, the 420 is a great boat; easy to sail, safe in almost any conditions and a joy to live aboard. Slow in light winds, but great in stiff winds and gales

Regards

Chris

Octopus, Lagoon 420 Hybrid, Hull 52
Isle of Arran, Scotland
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Old 01-11-2016, 23:35   #1142
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus View Post
Greetings Harl and welcome to the forum

I've owned a Lagoon 420 Hybrid since 2007 and my list of 'pitfalls' is short.
  • The mechanism on the sliding saloon doors may fail eventually. It's cheap but fiddly to repair.
  • If the steering seems heavy then the rudder linkage may be partially seized and could fail. I've known a few fail, but it's easy to check and not too expensive to replace (150/$200/200)
  • The helm seat of the 2007/8 versions are poorly designed
  • The velcro holding the saloon cushions in place is inadequate, particularly for the seat closest to the sliding saloon door, which gets a lot of traffic
  • If the saloon hatches are left open when it rains then rainwater will run over the roof and into the saloon
  • In the same way, the helm position collects rainwater when it rains. you can channel the water away by some form of channelling, but we just sit elsewhere when it rains.
  • The struts on the Lewmar hatches in the forward cabins tend to fail.
  • The blinds on the Lewmar hatches tend to fail regularly, because the springs corrode.
  • If you are 6ft(1.8m) or more you'll hit your head a few times on the bimini when accessing the side decks from the cockpit, until you get used to it. Likewise when stepping into the heads from the cabins, owing to the doors being bizarrely shorter than the cabin doors.
  • The Genoa tends to fail at the luff after a few thousand miles (we've got through two sails after major repairs in 15,000 sea miles). Perhaps it is down to the way we set the sails, who knows?
  • The thermo couple on the gas oven supplied by Lagoon fail repeatedly.
  • Lookout for corrosion at the swaying on the main stays
  • Be careful not to lose sail battens when raising or lowering the mainsail or reefing; they tend to jump out of the cars

Other than that, the 420 is a great boat; easy to sail, safe in almost any conditions and a joy to live aboard. Slow in light winds, but great in stiff winds and gales

Regards

Chris

Octopus, Lagoon 420 Hybrid, Hull 52
Isle of Arran, Scotland
Many thanks Chris, your feedback was invaluable, much appreciated.

Fair winds and blue skies,

John, #Harl, Newport, Queensland, Australia
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Old 24-07-2017, 11:25   #1143
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

I know this is an old thread, however I figured it was worth a post.

I have a client looking for a 110v owners version. If you have a boat and are interested in selling please contact me .

robert@texascoastyachts.com
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Old 12-08-2017, 05:44   #1144
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Hi there,

I saw some 2008 L420 recently on the market and I wonder it you'll are still happy with yours. Are there any delamination issues / osmosis known on the L420's so far?

I am considering to buy one and fix her up. What do I have to expect in $$$ or €€€, if a new standing rig needs to be refit? thank you very much!
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:08   #1145
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Hi there,

I saw some 2008 L420 recently on the market and I wonder it you'll are still happy with yours. Are there any delamination issues / osmosis known on the L420's so far?

I am considering to buy one and fix her up. What do I have to expect in $$$ or , if a new standing rig needs to be refit? thank you very much!
I've owned my 420 for ten years and haven't had any structural issues. Structural construction is robust.

I replaced the standing rigging two years ago at a cost of 2,154 ($2785 at today's [poor] exchange rate), owing to visible corrosion at the swaging on one of the stays. It wasn't too expensive, as the rigging is very simple.

I've replaced the mainsail once and the genoa twice in ten years (15,000 nm). The first genoa was bought from Northsails in 2007 as a spare at a cost of about $2,000 USD and the main and the 2nd genoa were also bought from Northsails at a bargain price of $1600 USD two years ago. I've also spent about about $1,500 on sail repairs over the last ten years.

No sign of osmosis and she has been in the water the whole ten years. I believe that modern boat construction from mainstream boat builders is much less prone to osmosis owing to different materials and methods and a better understanding of the causes.

No issues to note, except an elusive rainwater leak that happens occasionally, probably when wind is in a certain direction causing rainwater to be sucked in somewhere owing to differential air pressure.

There are a couple of minor design issues that are irritating, but not bad enough for us to do anything about them. Rain water comes in at the two front saloon hatches, if they are left open when it's raining. Rainwater also runs over the bimini and onto the helm position.

There are a few cosmetic irritations, which should not deter you from buying an otherwise excellent boat. The sun shading on the big cabin windows is inexplicably 'painted' onto the exterior of the windows and this is abraded by wind, waves and rope over the years and so can look a bit scruffy. Apparently the shading can be cleaned off with a very mild abrasive (metal polish etc), but I have't tried it yet. Some of the stainless steel fittings get discoloured by corrosion, but are simple enough to clean (carefully) with a reasonably strong acid (e.g. Muriatic Acid).

After ten years, we should probably be replacing our trampolines, but I test them rigorously every so often and they still seem pretty strong. Generally, I avoid walking on them, but you wouldn't want them to fail on you if you were underway. Fortunately, there is little need to try your luck. Cosmetically, they look rather grey now.

I suppose you should look out for weakness in the desk, which might indicate that water has got into the balsa cored deck, but don't assume that this is the case if you find a weak point; part of our deck has flexed a bit more than the rest since day one and it is just the same ten years later.

The large mouldings in Lagoons of this generation are often held together by liberal quantities of silicone and foam. This construction method can appear more than a little slapdash, but seems to be surviving the test of time well.

The 420 is a big strong boat, which makes it a bit slower than some of it's competitors, but it has class-leading space and liveability that more than make up for any discrepancy in speed. The 420 loves a good blow and is very happy in winds from 15 knots to 30 knots and is comfortable in stronger winds (we spent 12 hours in a F10 in the Irish Sea and were not the least bit concerned), but in winds less than 10 knots we tend to just turn on the motors as I can't be bothered to fiddle with the sails.

Let me know if you have any more specific questions.

Chris
Octopus
Lagoon 420 Hybrid, Hull 52
Isle of Arran, Scotland
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Old 12-08-2017, 15:46   #1146
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

I concur and love our 420. She is a big strong girl waiting for adventure!
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Old 13-08-2017, 01:40   #1147
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Hi, and thank you very much for your input!

It makes me even more confident to buy one for blue water sailing, especially if the costs are not that high to re-rig and buy some spare sails just in case before starting larger passages.

Probably a good parasailor or code zero can propel the L420 under 10kt sufficiently, to keep motoring to a minimum.

Does somebody has done a conversion of one hull from a 4 cabin version to a 3 cabin with plenty of additional storage for washer / dryer / additional freezer etc? I assume the 2 heads are not part of the hull structure and can be converted to closets for storage / space - and because all the piping is already there - a washer / dryer could be easily plumbed in. The one shower could also make a great wet / dry room for hanging the neoprene diving gear and the cave of the forward double bed could also make up a great "garage" for spare parts, tools, folding bikes and toys while under way.

I am not sure yet, if it really makes sense to do this, because there are ample
of hatches, but as a couple we need only 1 berth and one head / shower, and the second hull has enough space for temporary guests with all necessities aft. The second forward bed is a good place to store all the front cushions when sailing.

AFAIK the Lagoon does not use the furniture to enforce the structure as Fountaine Pajot did to save weight. So it should not be that hard to make it more useable by re-fitting one hull.

Well this are just ideas, finally I will consider this when I have it.
I am very curious about any ideas of a successful re-fits.
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Old 14-08-2017, 12:59   #1148
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Quote:
I am not sure yet, if it (conversion) really makes sense to do this
I do not think it does, unless you want to build an office down in the hull. Just start using one of staterooms as a huge storage and one of heads as a wet locker.

As for water ingress when front windows in saloon are open: I got glue-backed, rubber insulation tape at Home Depot for few $$ and glued it under overhang, as a barrier, one string few inches from the edge of overhang, second one about 4 inches from the window. The best tape is one that has a lot of sharp edges. What these edges do is that they break running water stream and force water to fall down before reaching salon windows. It works very well, even in heavy rain, but it will not prevent water from being blown inside the saloon by wind. Later I extended this improvement all around saloon windows so now water does not run all the way to the windows but falls down at the rubber barrier, keeping windows drier and cleaner.
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Old 14-08-2017, 14:13   #1149
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

There is a post downhere (i cant add link as writing from my phone now) about a 450 being transformed for cruising.

Pics included for transforming the redundant forward cabin in the hull being converted as "owners hull"


Refloating the 450 thread for your convenience!
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Old Yesterday, 03:53   #1150
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Hi there.

I am still on the hunt for a 420 in Europe and stumbled upon a hybrid-leftover.

I think the hybrid batteries would be probably half past dead after almost 10 years - if not replaced frequently in the meantime - does someone know what specs they have (72V xxxAh)? What Wattage have the electric engines and for how long can one motor with them on battery and on battery + Genset?

What are the estimated costs to convert this beast into a nice 2x40hp diesel (Volvo Penta or Yanmar) - I heard most hybrid lagoons have been converted to plain diesel engines successfully - so I wonder what discount I would need to negotiate to get a comparable price tag to one "regular" 420.

Thank you very much!
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Old Yesterday, 05:34   #1151
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
What are the estimated costs to convert this beast into a nice 2x40hp diesel (Volvo Penta or Yanmar) - I heard most hybrid lagoons have been converted to plain diesel engines successfully - so I wonder what discount I would need to negotiate to get a comparable price tag to one "regular" 420.
I guess you get could a pair of new 40hp Yanmars fitted for around 30k. It would be a bit more expensive if you got Lagoon to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
I think the hybrid batteries would be probably half past dead after almost 10 years - if not replaced frequently in the meantime - does someone know what specs they have (72V xxxAh)? What Wattage have the electric engines and for how long can one motor with them on battery and on battery + Genset?
I guess that a 10 year old hybrid will have had its batteries replaced within the last five years (ours has), so there may be a few years left in them.

It cost us about 3k to replace the twelve 220Ahr lead acid propulsion batteries a few years ago. I would have preferred to replace them with LiFePO4 batteries, but it was easier at the time to just slot in new lead acids. Next time I will definitely fit LiFePo4 batteries, as they are a similar cost in the long-term and have other advantages, such as:
  • Much smaller and lighter
  • No need for ventilation fans
  • Able to be charged much more quickly and efficiently
  • Zero maintenance
  • Last a lot longer
The electric motors are each 10kW and the European spec Onan generator is 17.5kVA (driven by a 29HP Kubotoa diesel engine), which may sound underpowered when compared with twin 40HP Yanmars, but is not much slower (circa 1 knot), because the electric motors are more efficient at transforming power into thrust.

We never really motor without having the generator on, except to show off by docking in silence occasionally, but if the batteries are fully charged then I guess you can expect to motor at 4 knots for a couple of hours. Obviously, with the generator on then your range is only limited by your fuel capacity.
Note: with electric motors there is no fuel saving to be had by operating only one motor, like you would if you have twin diesels. Your fuel saving would come from reducing the current to both motors. I would expect a hybrid to be a little bit more fuel-efficient, but not by much (perhaps 10% to 20% overall).

If you do buy a hybrid and fit conventional diesel propulsion then I may be interested in some of the hybrid components as spares.

Good luck and get in contact if you need any help with the hybrid.

Chris
Octopus, Lagoon 420 Hybrid, Hull Number 52
Isle of Arran, Scotland
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Old Yesterday, 07:49   #1152
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Hello Octopus

Thank you very much.

So 3.000€ for batteries around all 5 years, sounds not so different than having a yearly inspection with oil change for the 2 diesel at 300€ each including parts. And the generator needs some maintenance too. Also loosing the generator at see would be a major issue compared to having 2 independent engines.

Du you sail longer passages with your L420? Do you have a spare diesel generator on board?

A good thing is, you have plenty of electric capacity on board for fridges etc. however the transformation to 72V brings some losses of energy. If you have solar, you could decide to put 6 panels in series and charge the 72V directly with a capable controller - and then step-down to charge the 12/24V board bank or go the oher way around by charging the board bank and using a 220V inverter and the 72V charger to top up the propulsion banks.

I learned, they are separate for each engine, but can be combined / cross-switched to feed the other side.

I wonder how it would work out when using LiFeYPO4 for this pack, 130Ah cells would be more than sufficient to replace the 210Ah lead-acid, so two banks at 24 cells would summ up to 48 x 210€ + 2 x BMS for round about 800€ ~ 11.000-12.000€ investment - and you would get rid of 2/3 of the weight (250kg vs. 760kg) for the batteries. Well according to your usage pattern - after 20 years you would break even
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Old Yesterday, 09:14   #1153
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

Quote:
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So 3.000 for batteries around all 5 years, sounds not so different than having a yearly inspection with oil change for the 2 diesel at 300 each including parts. And the generator needs some maintenance too.
Maintenance is one of the key advantages of the hybrid. The generator is situated in the cockpit and everything is easy to access, making it quick and easy to service. Most conventionally powered cats have a generator and two propulsion engines to service!

Quote:
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... Also losing the generator at sea would be a major issue compared to having 2 independent engines.
Yes, the generator is a single point of failure, whereas twin diesels gives you the comfort of some additional redundancy, but don't forget that the 420 is first and foremost a sail boat and your main insurance against engine failure are the sails. When in Antigua, we had a oil pressure sensor fail on our generator, causing the controls to prevent it being started. We were able to sail the 100nm to the Sint Maarten, and still had plenty of battery power to take us into Simpson Bay marina, where an Onan engineer was waiting for us. This is one reason that we always try to keep our batteries well charged.

Quote:
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Do you sail longer passages with your L420? Do you have a spare diesel generator on board?
We sailed across the Atlantic twice and also some other 1000nm passages. We don't carry a spare generator.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
A good thing is, you have plenty of electric capacity on board for fridges etc. however the transformation to 72V brings some losses of energy. If you have solar, you could decide to put 6 panels in series and charge the 72V directly with a capable controller - and then step-down to charge the 12/24V board bank or go the oher way around by charging the board bank and using a 220V inverter and the 72V charger to top up the propulsion banks.
Yes, the abundance of electrical power is, for me, the main benefit of the hybrid system. Of course, with conventional diesel propulsion you can still have a large generator and big battery bank, but with the hybrid these things come as standard. There are some inefficiencies from converting 72V to 230AC or 12VDC, but these losses are very small (circa 7%). I now have a 72V inverter, so I do not use the 72VDC/12VDC converter so much.

Quote:
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I learned, they are separate for each engine, but can be combined / cross-switched to feed the other side.
Yes, it is designed so if one bank of batteries fails you can switch to running on just one bank of batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
I wonder how it would work out when using LiFeYPO4 for this pack, 130Ah cells would be more than sufficient to replace the 210Ah lead-acid, so two banks at 24 cells would summ up to 48 x 210 + 2 x BMS for round about 800 ~ 11.000-12.000 investment - and you would get rid of 2/3 of the weight (250kg vs. 760kg) for the batteries. Well according to your usage pattern - after 20 years you would break even
Yes, 130Ah of LiFeYPo4 batteries would give as much usable power as 210Ah Lead Acid. I have been looking at 160Ah for 167.91 each:

https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah...IDE.html?cur=1

So 8060 for 48 160Ah batteries (plus shipping, VAT and BMS) makes it an expensive choice compared with Lead Acid, but less expensive than buying two 40HP Yanmars!


Chris
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Old Yesterday, 13:48   #1154
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

On reading you it looks like technology (mainly, battery LiFeYPo4) is NOW mature enough to make Hybrid a realistic option!
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Old Yesterday, 14:37   #1155
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Re: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah...IDE.html?cur=1

So 8060 for 48 160Ah batteries (plus shipping, VAT and BMS) makes it an expensive choice compared with Lead Acid, but less expensive than buying two 40HP Yanmars!


Chris
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Obviously no dog in this decision as not my boat but I would ask "Why change it to diesel?" The hybrid obviously works well for you so I would bite the bullet, get the LiFeYPO4 batts and keep enjoying life!
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