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Old 02-04-2008, 16:07   #946
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Originally Posted by GPM View Post
I sailed both on the same day last year and ended up with a 440. The relative speeds on all points of sail in 10 - 18 knots of wind were quite different. Could not get the 420 over 6+ knots. The 440 sailed much faster. The 440 tacked easier and was less impacted by seas. I used my 440 for 7 weeks in the BVI and was very impressed with performance and handling in rough water. But it can get wet at the helm when you are going to the wind.
We spent a week back to back. 440 first then 420. The 420 was a major letdown after the 440. The 420 ride was way rougher, the helm disorganized, slow, wet at the helm, noisy generator. Unreliable electrics.
Underpowered both under sail and motor.

440 was way more enjoyable.
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Old 02-04-2008, 18:49   #947
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Location: Isle of Arran, UK
Boat: Lagoon 420 - Hull 52
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We Love the 420

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We spent a week back to back. 440 first then 420. The 420 was a major letdown after the 440. The 420 ride was way rougher, the helm disorganized, slow, wet at the helm, noisy generator. Unreliable electrics.
Underpowered both under sail and motor.

440 was way more enjoyable.
Yeah, Yeah Badgerman we all know you hated the 420 and loved the 440, it's just getting a bit boring reading the the same opinion over and over and over again.

You chartered the 440 and 420 back to back, the implication being that it was a fair comparison. Is it not possible that there were some inequalities in your comparison? First off is length and price. The 440 is longer, so it should be faster and the ride should be smoother. The 440 is, I believe, approximately 15% more expensive; some of that extra money will have been spent addressing some of the issues that you raised in your analysis.

You sailed one of the early 420s, which had been rushed into service shortly after sailing the Atlantic, whereas the 440 is a mature design with most of the rough edges smoothed out by now. Perhaps you would not have raised the same issues had you been sailing a 420 that has come off the line more recently. For example, you say the generator is noisy, whereas we have found it to be remarkably quiet - we saw hull #4 in Southampton a year ago and it had no sound insulation material; our 420, hull #52, has plenty and when underway you wouldn't know it was on if you didn't put your ear to the box.

We have been almost entirely happy with our 420 and we have had rather more than a week to make our assessment. Lagoon have already addressed hundreds of minor issues and the G2 upgrade due to be applied to all hybrids next month will address all the main issues with the hybrid system. Instead of bad mouthing the 420 at every opportunity we should be applauding Lagoon for being brave enough to launch a radical new technology into a mass market and commending them for their commitment by retrofitting the improvements to all hybrids.

Two weeks of back to back sailing isn't a satisfactory basis for comparison of performance, especially in a cat where wind speed and boat speed can be so deceptive and such reliance is placed on the instruments. We all know that there can be a significant difference in weather from week to week and that different points of sail in different sea conditions can bring out the best and worst in different boats. I strongly suspect that the calibration of the instruments was way out on the 420 you sailed. We had to recalibrate all our instruments when we took delivery of our 420. Perhaps the 440's log was flattering its speed and the 420s was under-reading (ours did). Perhaps the 420's wind indicator was under reading (ours was). Who knows? Perhaps the rough ride you noticed was because the the 420 was going faster than you thought in tougher conditions. In six months of sailing nearly 6,000 miles we have never found the ride to be as you describe.

Having said all this, I fully accept that the 420 is somewhat slower than the 440. Why wouldn't it be? Length is the primary determinant of speed, next is the Length to Beam Ratio, next is Sail Area to Displacement Ratio. The 420 scores significantly lower than the 440 in all these. The designers, Van Peteghem and Lauriot Prévost, have clearly chosen comfort over speed. No doubt they have been mindful that most boats spend only a small proportion of their time sailing and have concentrated on providing outstanding space and livability in a manageable and affordable package. As liveaboards we have certainly appreciated the design compromises they made. More speed would, on occasions, be nice, but then we couldn't afford a 440; more space would be even nicer, but then the 420 has marginally more internal space than the 440 and both have more than the competion.

So Badgerman, please stop repeating yourself. You've had your say and made your point. Anyone not familiar with your opinion can find it easily enough using the Search facility, it's there over and over and over again.

Chris and Beth
L420, Hull #52, Octopus
Falmouth Harbour, Antigua
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Old 02-04-2008, 21:16   #948
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Originally Posted by EdKangeter View Post
Three questions, please:
1. What were the sea conditions?
2. Re: "wet at the helm". Does your boat have a dodger?
3. It seems from photos that the fly bridge arrangement requires the boom to be higher than on a Lagoon 410. Do you notice any stability problems or greater heeling angles? Any other comments about sail handling, etc?
Ed: Responses to your questions.

1. Sea conditions for the sea trials? 1-2 footers, very calm. Throughout the season we encountered everything from flat to 8-10 footers.
2. Yes, the 440 comes with a dodger. I rarely use it in the BVI but do put it up on a long beat in seas above 4-5 feet and winds about 20 knots. That's when you will take spray at the helm.
3. Yes boom is higher, but no impact on stability. These boats don't heel more than 5 degrees. The only issue with the height of the boom is that you have to climb the mast steps to zip up the cradle cover. The beauty of the bridge is that you have a great view of the sails and the traveler. On some cats, you can't see your traveler position. It took a while to adjust to triming a cat properly versus a monohull. I found I was overtriming initially. But basically if you learn how to use the very long traveler properly, you get some good performance. Broad reaching is a dream!
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Old 03-04-2008, 21:38   #949
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Hi Chris and Beth,

Thanks for the feedback. I was getting a little worried about chartering the 420. We are going to be in BVI for three weeks starting May 1st. Looking forward to it now.

Thanks,

aztanglefoot
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:57   #950
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Don't be worried. Plenty of guests have chartered Dignity since Badgerman's charter in August and we've been on her too. His has been the only negative feedback. And no. We haven't moved the winches around to make it less disorganized. We haven't torn down the rigging and put up bigger sails. We haven't switched the motors around to make her faster under power and we certainly haven't made the berths any softer. They are still just the same as the ones you get in a 440. From my own experience and all the feedback I have received since you'd think he was on a different boat.

If Badgerman had genuine issues with the boat I don't know why he didn't pursue a refund with CatCo. I would have fully supported it if there were issues with the boat, post delivery or other. When Badgerman made his first negative post I half wondered if he was on Dignity so I PM'd on this board. I can't explain why he chose not to reply.

Personally, and I could be wrong, I think his comments tell us more about Badgerman and his 'captain'. My view is reinforced by the facade of anonimity he maintains. He says he has a boat but hasn't put the name of his boat or his own name on his profile. After all, I am sure he knows there is a very large audience on this thread. Instead he prefers to insult people who mistakenly believe he has no boat. But again, I could be wrong. Maybe Badgerman just hasn't got round to announcing his and his boats name on his profile so that all his comments can be tied back to him and his boat. All the cruisers who I'm sure he must think respect his opinion could then recognize his boat in the islands and say hello Badgerman, if they're not drunk that is. If he intends to put his boat into charter I am sure people will respect the opinions he has expressed on this boad and upon recognizing his boat make a positive effort to pick his boat over others.
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Old 05-04-2008, 16:24   #951
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Need a Dinghy

Please give me some guidance on selecting a Dinghy for my 420. Can anyone tell me the max. length that will fit between the hulls and I would also appreciate any feedback regarding brand of dinghy and outboard. I am currently looking at an aluminum RIB (Aquapro, Titan, AB) between 9 and 10 feet long and hoping that a 6 hp Tahatsu outboard will push it. Thanks a bunch.
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Old 05-04-2008, 17:20   #952
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10 ft dinghy- No problem

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Originally Posted by Alaskagator View Post
Please give me some guidance on selecting a Dinghy for my 420. Can anyone tell me the max. length that will fit between the hulls and I would also appreciate any feedback regarding brand of dinghy and outboard. I am currently looking at an aluminum RIB (Aquapro, Titan, AB) between 9 and 10 feet long and hoping that a 6 hp Tahatsu outboard will push it. Thanks a bunch.
The Lagoon 420 Owner's manual states that the davits are designed to support a load of 250kg (551lbs) and a tender not exceeding 2.25m (10ft 10"), so there should be no problem with a 10ft aluminium dinghy fitted with a 6hp outboard.

On our davits we have a 4.2m (14ft) RIB weighing in at nearly 200kg (441lbs) including 15hp 4-stroke and full fuel tank. Far too big really, but it means we can transport the kids and their friends around anchorages in comfort and safety

Chris
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English Harbour, Antigua
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Old 05-04-2008, 18:25   #953
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I have a Walker Bay 340 centimeter, which is a little over 11 feet and it fits very nicely. I push it with a 5 HP Honda 4 Stroke. I would like more power, but the 5HP pushes it very nicely. The Walker Bay is wide, rows very nicely also, and the hard seats are a big plus. No sitting on the tubes for anybod
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Old 07-04-2008, 19:05   #954
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On our davits we have a 4.2m (14ft) RIB weighing in at nearly 200kg (441lbs) including 15hp 4-stroke and full fuel tank. Far too big really, but it means we can transport the kids and their friends around anchorages in comfort and safety
What are the downsides of the extra length? I prefer a sizable RIB with range for gunkholing, diving, etc. Does the nose just block the stern on one side when on the davit?
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:23   #955
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Downside of a 14ft RIB on a 420

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What are the downsides of the extra length? I prefer a sizable RIB with range for gunkholing, diving, etc. Does the nose just block the stern on one side when on the davit?
Hi Mark424

With a 14ft RIB on our davits the transom steps are not obstructed too badly at all. The swim ladder is difficult to raise if the nose of the RIB is to starboard, bur otherwise it is OK.

The main problems with such a big/heavy RIB is the weight when trying to drag it up the beach with only two adults.

I'm also not happy with all that weight swinging around on the davits when in big seas, as I'm concerned about the loading on the davits. I (nearly) always dismount the outboard and the fuel tank when going on a passage and provide additional support for the RIB from the top of the bimini posts to lessen the load on the RIB and stop it moving around too much. Dismounting the outboard is a major pain as it is so heavy.

Also, such a heavy weight near the stern is not good for performance, as, with RIB outboard and fuel on the davits, the bottom of transoms tend to submerge a bit (we are heavily laden anyway). The 420 is designed to accommodate heavy loads in the stern (the batteries), but even so it isn't wise to overdo it.

We did have a few problems with hauling up the RIB, because the davit rings on the RIB were further apart than the davits and so the lateral pull meant the rope tended to jump the blocks and/or the davit pulleys. We wrecked two blocks this way. We cured this by getting rid of the blocks. This meant we lost the 2:1 advantage, but the simpler set-up was less prone to problems.

We also found the davit winch was too low for an ideal pulling angle with such a load and so we tended to get riding turns on the winch. This was cured by running the ropes to the main winches, via the spinnaker blocks mounted by their strops from the bimini post handholds. This gave us the electric winch to raise the heavy outboard end of the RIB and the bow end was raised manually at the same time. This way, raising the RIB is less work and lowering it is very quick and is easier to control, as you can cast-off both ropes at the same time.

If I was making the choice again I would go for a slightly shorter(12-13ft) and lighter RIB, with a 9hp 4-stroke engine instead of 15hp. I like the Walker Bays, but they don't make one big enough for our needs. It would be good to be able to row and sail our RIB. We have a separate sailing dinghy, which is fun but adds still further to the weight problem.

Chris
Octopus, L420, Hull #58
English Harbour, Antigua
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:35   #956
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Octopus for sale?

Octopus,

I just noticed a Lagoon 420 for sale on yachtworld named Octopus, I suppose this is yours?
Why are you selling ?

2007 Lagoon Lagoon 420 Hybrid Boat For Sale=
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Old 08-04-2008, 08:00   #957
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Reluctant Sale

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Octopus,

I just noticed a Lagoon 420 for sale on yachtworld named Octopus, I suppose this is yours?
Why are you selling ?

2007 Lagoon Lagoon 420 Hybrid Boat For Sale=
Hi Pieter97

It is the end of our sabbatical sailing year. If there was any way we could justify keeping Octopus we would. She has been just perfect for us. Unfortunately we have very busy land lives. With six children, high school commitments, a big old house to maintain and myself working away from home, we would scarcely ever sail her.

Chris
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:41   #958
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why not Solomon electric wheel?

I wonder why Lagoon changed from the Solomon hybrid system used in Lagoon 410 Waypoint into the current system. What are the main differences between the two systems?
BTW, What system to what result was/is being used in the rare hybrid L440?
Yes, i Know this thread is about 420, but replies could be usefull to 420 fans, nd there is a lot of knowledge in this thread contributors.

Best regards
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:11   #959
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Dave Tether who was the guy behind Solomon got ousted by the venture capitalists he brought in to expand his company. They are now more interested in pursuing a lawsuit than conducting marine business. I believe some of his know how made it to the Lagoon design.
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Old 12-04-2008, 16:53   #960
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Is pricing on the 420 about the same no matter who the broker is?

First post here, although I've been following the thread for a while. I'm thinking about buying a 420, and wonder if the price is the same no matter which broker you use. Is it OK to talk about pricing? Thanks.
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