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Old 22-03-2008, 07:09   #931
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Most cats have escape hatches. I have a standard rule I brief every crew member on. If you open a escape hatch for air then you must put a cup over one of the throttles. A cup over the throttles indicates to whoever is moving the boat that a hatch below is open. Works great and is very simple. If you don't sometime during the week you will attempt to move the boat with the hatch or hatches open.
P.S. This is a old pilot trick where we put a cup on the flap handle if there was inop equipment that required action before flap extension. The flap cup was almost standard equipment on the 727.

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Old 22-03-2008, 07:33   #932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
Most cats have escape hatches. I have a standard rule I brief every crew member on. If you open a escape hatch for air then you must put a cup over one of the throttles. A cup over the throttles indicates to whoever is moving the boat that a hatch below is open. Works great and is very simple. If you don't sometime during the week you will attempt to move the boat with the hatch or hatches open.
P.S. This is a old pilot trick where we put a cup on the flap handle if there was inop equipment that required action before flap extension. The flap cup was almost standard equipment on the 727.

George
I agree with you Goerge and still practice the same on my plane , one can go one step further and ask the factory building the cat to mount the escape hatches with the hinges on the forward side, at least if somebody leaves one open it will close with the first wave hitting the hatch.
We have mounted them that way and it is a help.
We also have the cup in place and in our manual we recommend a pre flight or in this case a pre sail check

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Old 22-03-2008, 08:10   #933
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Gideon, as an AIRBUS pilot, I suggest a simple "electronic warning device" showing up in the cockpit (helm).
It helps my old brain in flying operations, so should also help in sailing operations!
The required weight should be negligible!

Keep wings level (also with a catamaran)
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Old 26-03-2008, 07:59   #934
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Lagoon 420 vs 440 wave slapping

Last weekend I was test-sailing both the Lagoon 420 (the one we're planning to order) and a 440 in La Rochelle, France. With me was an owner of a 440 (he canceled his 420 order due to problems with electric system) and he told me that the 420 design results in a more comfortable ride compared to the 440 when it comes to wave slapping.

I took two pictures comparing the 440 and 420 designs:

440
420

I've seen that several of you have sailed both models, can you confirm this?
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Old 26-03-2008, 08:28   #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilot View Post
Gideon, as an AIRBUS pilot, I suggest a simple "electronic warning device" showing up in the cockpit (helm).
It helps my old brain in flying operations, so should also help in sailing operations!
The required weight should be negligible!

Keep wings level (also with a catamaran)
Hello Pilot in an airplane having a electric or electronic device is no problem but in a boat near the waterline that is another problem.
Besides the extra cost and added weight corrosion is always a problem.
Just do a good preflight and mount them in a way so if a wave slappes in to them they automatically close
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Old 26-03-2008, 08:39   #936
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I have sailed both and I would say the 420 seems to be better. Problem is is that I haven't sailed them in identical conditions nor long enough for me to be fully confident in this statement.
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Old 26-03-2008, 16:46   #937
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[quote=yme_bosma;146841]Last weekend I was test-sailing both the Lagoon 420 (the one we're planning to order) and a 440 in La Rochelle, France.

Not too many of us have had the opportunity to sail both of these models back to back. So please tell us your impression of the 420 versus the 440.

Did the 440 sail noticeably faster than the 420?
Did the 440 "hobby-horse" less than the 420?
Did the 420 provide a smoother ride?
Which interior did you like better?
Are you ordering the electric or diesel 420?
Any other observations?

Mike
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Old 27-03-2008, 00:44   #938
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Originally Posted by MikeMak View Post
Not too many of us have had the opportunity to sail both of these models back to back. So please tell us your impression of the 420 versus the 440.

Did the 440 sail noticeably faster than the 420?
Did the 440 "hobby-horse" less than the 420?
Did the 420 provide a smoother ride?
Which interior did you like better?
Are you ordering the electric or diesel 420?
Any other observations?
We indeed had a good opportunity to compare them since both both boats were out at the same time during the three test runs we made (in about 20 knots of wind). Some observations:
  • The 440 did sail faster (with same sail setup) close to the wind, but:
    • The 420 was regenerating
    • The 420 was hull #1 which is heavier compared to the new 420
    • The new 420 will have a larger sail area
  • Yes. the 440 felt more stable (less hobby horsing), but both were really comfortable actually
  • One of the reasons we are opting for the 420 is that it feels at least as 'roomy' in terms of interior compared to the 440 (both were owner versions). Both inside and in the cockpit. Other reasons (besides pricing) are
    • We very much prefer the higher placed bimini, it feels much more spacious in the cockpit
    • Although it feels great to be steering the 440 from high above, we prefer the less isolated and more protected set-up of the 420
      • I've read several comments on this board about the messiness of all the lines coming together at one point on the 420 (easy for short handed sailing). This is true, but I guess it takes some discipline to make sure this does not get annoying while sailing
    • The 420 salon is more open and connected with the cockpit, it feels more secluded on the 440
    • The build quality (interior) of the 440 seemed better compared to the 420. Not sure if this is due to the 420 being hull #1 since we did not notice this on a previous visit on a 420 (hull # in the 90s)
  • Having followed the discussions on this board I was really focused on the sailing performance of the 420, but we really came away feeling very comfortable about that (although we did not have the chance to test light wind performance)
    • Down wind the 420 continuously sailed about 8kts (in about 20 kts of wind) while regenerating and with one reef
    • Close to the wind (18 kts) we were sailing about 6.5 kts with the same setup (waves were small due to land protection)
  • We will be ordering the Diesel version since we feel more safe with two different engines, and since we are planning to live aboard for at least a few years while circumnavigating this is an important issue
    • We were really impressed with the silent motoring of the hybrid version, even with the generator on. It made us doubt;-)
    • We will go for a very small or no generator, but with a solar panels (on top of the bimini), a setup we had seen on another 420
Mike, since yours will be delivered next months I do have two questions. Our dealer told us that the 'new' 420 (the one we would get) would have (amongst other improvements) a larger sail area and a different davits setup (see earlier complaints in this thread). Can you confirm this for your hull number as well?
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Old 27-03-2008, 16:07   #939
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Quote:
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Mike, since yours will be delivered next months I do have two questions. Our dealer told us that the 'new' 420 (the one we would get) would have (amongst other improvements) a larger sail area and a different davits setup (see earlier complaints in this thread). Can you confirm this for your hull number as well?


I wish I could! My boat will have the 75 hp Yanmars, but I had not heard of these other changes. We all know the 420 can use more sail area. I would be incredibly overjoyed if the sail area on my boat is larger.

Perhaps these changes will take effect for the 2009 model year? I believe after the end of July the 2009 model year begins.

Mike
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Old 30-03-2008, 06:22   #940
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Perhaps these changes will take effect for the 2009 model year? I believe after the end of July the 2009 model year begins.

I think that must be true yes, our boat would be build beginning of 2009. I will check with the dealer.
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Old 31-03-2008, 02:39   #941
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An Owner's View

Having sailed nearly 6000 miles on our 420 Hybrid since October I have the following comments to add to this discussion.

Sailing performance
The 420 sails well, once you learn how to trim the sails properly. We had 4.5 tonnes/tons of supplies and equipment on board when we set out, so initially our sailing performance was disappointing, but as we eat our way through our supplies and jettison unnecessary baggage the sailing performance is improving. I've been particularly impressed with the speed when close-hauled and she can point well too.

Motoring performance
Performance under power is adequate, but only just. Control issues with the G1 hybrid system have prevented full power from being delivered. We have been told that the G2 upgrade should give similar performance to the conventional 40hp twin diesel.

Hybrid Benefits
Silent running under electric motors is nice when you want to show off, but we are happier when the generator is running and we know we have the spare capacity in the battery bank should the generator fail.

The abundance of electricity is the major benefit. The huge propulsion battery bank can be indirectly used to support the 12V Domestic battery bank and inverters means that the powerful generator rarely needs to be run. This gives us the benefit of all modern conveniences without the concerns over battery levels that most boats give. The powerful generator means we can run a powerful 220VAC watermaker producing around 300 litres an hour, so we refill our tank in less than 40 minutes and have abundant fresh water. We make water at the same time as we are charging the batteries, using our standard 220VAC automatic washing machine. This helps to minimise the time that the generator on. We cook with electricity, using standard appliances, which is safer, cleaner and more convenient than gas.

The Onan generator is remarkably quiet and economical. So, when motoring, the 420 Hybrid is significantly quieter than conventional propulsion systems and, although the motors generate some heat, the aft cabins are, I believe, significantly cooler than on other twin engined cats.

Generating electricity when under sail is a nice feature, but, as we only tend to sail about one day in five, the green energy is rarely available when we need it. We occasionally use the regen feature to slow the boat down a knot or so when we think it might make for a more comfortable ride. Other green energy sources for when at anchor would be a good idea. It would be easy to install a wind turbine or solar cells and connect them to the huge battery bank.

Manoevrability
The big props and the high torque delivered by the electric motors give the 420 Hybrid tremendous grip on the water. This makes it very manoeuvrable, despite the big windage.

Liveability
The 420 offers outstanding liveability. The visibility from the saloon, galley and the cockpit is fabulous. Visitors are blown away by the space, the light, the headroom and the visibility. The cabins and bathrooms are all spacious, comfortable and well laid out, although the doors to the bathrooms are inexplicably lower than the cabin doors leading to the occasional sore head.

Motion
We are pleased at how stable our boat is. The wide beam means she is very stable in big waves and doesn't pitch or roll. A longer boat, like the 440, will be that bit more stable, but the motion of the 420 has given us nothing to complain about. Our Atlantic crossing was a breeze.

Build Quality
We have had plenty of minor issues with the build quality, but these have mostly been down to sloppy workmanship during assembly and are easy to remedy. I suppose one must expect such irritations when boats are mass produced for such (relatively) low prices. The sailing hardware seems generally well specified, but is not always properly installed.

Davits
The davits on our 420 seem strong and work well. We have a huge RIB (4.2m/14ft long and 120kg) and a big outboard (15hp 4-stroke 50kg) and the davits have coped well, although we dismount the outboard on long passages and help support the weight of the RIB using lines to the top of the bimini posts. When going stern-to we would use lines from the far side of the rib up to the bimini posts to tilt the RIB.

Stern Scoops
The stern scoops are steep, but we have had no problem with them. My 87 year-old mother was able to go up and down without too much difficulty. I can see that they might be a problem for divers.

Overall, we are delighted with our 420 Hybrid and think she was excellent value for money. No other boat in the same price bracket could have brought ten people (and two cats) across the Atlantic so safely and comfortably.


Chris
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:39   #942
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G2 upgrade

I am the owner of Hull #9 and new to this forum that I just discovered last week.

I took delivery of Adagio in the South of France in April 07 and after a few quite difficult months in the Med, I had Adagio transported to Martinique last November and from there, sailed it to the BVI where we've been ever since.

I have just been advised by Beneteau that technicians will travel to the BVI and proceed to the G2 upgrade on the boat.

Could you someone tell me what the upgrade consists of and what the expected improvements are. I assume more power, which is needed, but what else, better control of the power, earlier shut down of the genset when batteries are full under sail?

JP
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:05   #943
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I strongly suggest you ask your dealer to provide you the details of the upgrade. Lagoon sent the dealers the details end of last year. It's important you get the lines of communication correct with your dealer.
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Old 02-04-2008, 14:33   #944
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I sailed both on the same day last year and ended up with a 440. The relative speeds on all points of sail in 10 - 18 knots of wind were quite different. Could not get the 420 over 6+ knots. The 440 sailed much faster. The 440 tacked easier and was less impacted by seas. I used my 440 for 7 weeks in the BVI and was very impressed with performance and handling in rough water. But it can get wet at the helm when you are going to the wind.
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Old 02-04-2008, 15:01   #945
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I sailed both on the same day last year and ended up with a 440. The relative speeds on all points of sail in 10 - 18 knots of wind were quite different. Could not get the 420 over 6+ knots. The 440 sailed much faster. The 440 tacked easier and was less impacted by seas. I used my 440 for 7 weeks in the BVI and was very impressed with performance and handling in rough water. But it can get wet at the helm when you are going to the wind.
Three questions, please:
1. What were the sea conditions?
2. Re: "wet at the helm". Does your boat have a dodger?
3. It seems from photos that the fly bridge arrangement requires the boom to be higher than on a Lagoon 410. Do you notice any stability problems or greater heeling angles? Any other comments about sail handling, etc?
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