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Old 09-03-2008, 10:47   #916
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115 pound outboard motor and lift

Far a Lagoon 440 catamaran, I will apreciate if you can give some sugestions / ideas about a setup to install a Yanmar 20HP motor and a removable lift for it. I have seen one installed on a bracket supplied by Lagoon ( see picture) but it is not strong enough for such a weight and tends to move with a little push.
Regards,
Balamber
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Old 09-03-2008, 21:14   #917
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Boat: Currently between boats; last owned/lived aboard my Lagoon 410.
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Your Lagoon 420

Quote:
Originally Posted by ess105 View Post
I'll talk to CatCo about their perspective on the spare parts pool for the L420s.

Incidentally, yesterday, I received a delivery date of March 9th, 2007 for Dignity. They have now listed her as hull #20. Not sure what's up. I do know there is a US Hull count which is separate to the manufacturers hull count which may explain the difference.

Steve
Did you ever get your boat? If so, what do you think of her? I sold my Lagoon 41 in 2000 and I'm looking to get back into a Cat for cruising...
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Old 10-03-2008, 04:46   #918
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Originally Posted by EdKangeter View Post
Did you ever get your boat? If so, what do you think of her? I sold my Lagoon 41 in 2000 and I'm looking to get back into a Cat for cruising...
Yes. She entered the fleet last August and we finally managed to spend a week aboard just a few weeks ago. Here is the critique that I posted on my own blog :
Quote:
Weíve been asked by a few folks for a critique of the boat. So here I go with what we liked and what we didnít. The context of this critique is our needs for our boat. Those with different requirements will have to take this into account. Itís personal. So before we get to my pros and cons I want to recap what we were looking for in a boat.
First and foremost, our boat will be our home. We wanted a boat we would be comfortable living in at anchor, on a mooring and occasionally in dock. Second, while we originally werenít thinking about an ecological boat, the Lagoon 420 appealed to us in a very big way with itís great potential for regeneration and platform for solar power. Third came performance. It doesnít matter too much to us as when we finally move aboard, time will not be our problem. Weíll be in no rush. But to be fair, nor do we want a bus.
So what did we like:
  • Spaciousness & layout. This is the first thing that hits you and it all works very well. The galley, being in the cabin and facing out to the back complete with sliding window as well as the helm being close to the living space keeps everyone together and social. The boat feels very roomy and light. Not only is there a lot of space, it feels bigger than itís size. The right-angle seating works very well allowing all sorts of seating positions depending on sun direction and whim. Living in the owners cabin exceeded our imaginations. The ventilation was excellent. Waking up seeing where you are through the big side windows you get on Lagoonís is priceless. While feeling quite cosy in the bunk, seeing the whole length of the hull stretch out ahead provides an amazing sense of space. The guest suites were well laid out and while not coming close to the space of the owners hull they still had the benefits of visibility, ventilation and comfort.
  • Single handed helm. This works very well. The arrangement of lines is very important as if not carefully thought out they could easily get tangled. Hats off to the folks at CatCo who had left the lines organized very well. On the first day I managed to tangle up the lines on the winches a couple of times but that soon stopped. It was just a matter of learning the right direction to pull from and once learned it became subconcious very quickly. What was nice was that although it was set up very well for single handing, two could work the lines when tacking and gybing very well without being crowded. As mentioned above, the fact that the helm is in the cabin is a big plus for us. Keeps us together.
  • Sailing performance. This was a big surprise. Reading the (perhaps third hand) accounts on the web I expected a slow boat. She wasnít a racer but she certainly flew. We didnít get a chance to sail her in light winds which I donít expect her to do well. The wind speeds during our trip were typically in the 16-22 knot range and only dropped below when we had a wind shadow from a nearby island. We typically managed just below half the wind speed and that was including the speed loss due to regeneration.
  • Regeneration. Another surprise. Had expected the output to be fairly low - again based on indirect accounts. For example, on one day we were on a reach in 18 knots of wind making a smidge over 8 knots through the water making 12A at 72V on each engine. Thatís practically 1.5kW of power. Now I fully expect losses to erode this but I am now fully convinced of this boats regeneration capabilities on longer sails. Iím quite excited by the prospect of longer crossings without having to run stinky engines to get the power to run fridges, autopilots, etc. Once we put on solar cells weíll be able to survive the windless days too. The one downside to the regeneration is it is a bit tricky to tune. One has to find the sweet spot on the throttle where regeneration is maximized. That can be hard to find and it has to be adjusted from time to time as conditions change.
  • Stability. Dignity was remarkably stable. That being said I never motor anything but the shortest distances without putting sail up and would never motor directly into wind which always causes problems. With these habits embedded we never really had a bad time. We had been told that the week we were there was one of the worst they had in while but we never noticed - in fact we had a whale of a time (that is a funny expression - Iíll have to look it up). We were allowed to develop bad habits of leaving things around and they stay where you left them even when youíre going over the bumps. Speaking of which, the forward nacelle seems to do a very good job of dampening the odd occasion when we had hull slaps. Much less of a boom than our previous experiences on cats.
  • Quiet running. Our ears were blessed. Even when the genset kicks in itís hard to hear. Nice.
  • Hatches. I was really impressed with the low profile hatches. Significantly reduced chance of stubbed toes. As mentioned previously they are well positioned allowing plenty of ventilation. We simply had no need to run the aircon anywhere bar the marina which was chosen for itís lack of wind. And even then it was not that necessary.
So what didnít we like
  • Coming home. By my reckoning the trip was about 9 years and 51 weeks too short. This can and will be fixed. Having said that it was nice to come home and see the boys even with the mess and mysteries presented.
  • Setting anchor. This is a real case of a plus being a minus. When setting anchor I am used to using the engines to drive the anchor into the sand and test it. Typically this is done by keeping an eye on the engine revs and an ear to the sound of the engine so that the power applied is right. So on Dignity with no rev meters and no noise from the motors bar the swish of water the old techniques canít be used. This may just be a matter of getting used to new signals. If thereís a chance of getting a reading of revs up to the helm I may look into this too.
  • Duration motoring on batteries. This was not as good as it should be. We know the G2 upgrade is coming along which sets very clear expectations on this. No specific dates on when this upgrade gets put in but the month of June is being mentioned.
  • Space at stern for dinghy. To improve interior space, the Lagoon 420s have steep sugar scoops (stairs) at the stern of each hull. This reduces the distance between the rear of the saloon and the dock. Turns out this doesnít leave enough room to leave the dinghy up on the davits when docking at Nanny Cay as the power tower is in the way. This is likely to be the case elsewhere too. This adds an additional activity when docking - ie, lowering the dinghy so it sits between the hulls. I am sure this will just become habit and a non issue in time.
  • Sugar scoop railing. A rail on the side of the sugar scoops would be very useful as an additional dinghy attachment point as well as helping people in an out of the dinghy. We had little problems without this but Iím thinking of visitors less used to the water environment and, I confess, the nights when our own legs are less stable.
  • Sailcars. Just like our monohull, assistance at the mast is required getting the mainsail down. I have been on boats where the mainsail drops without assistance which I find a pleasure. Requiring one less person to do any task is a plus. Chances are this may just be a matter of applying a little lubricant to the track.
  • Lighting oven. This turned out to be a bit of a pain with matches. Maybe weíre just being softy land-lubbers. Going to bring along one of those oven lighters next time.
Surprises. I thought Iíd mentioned a few surprises. Expectations certainly get set by what one hears and reads so I think itís worth pointing out what surprised us.
  • Sailing performance. According to many the boat is slow. As far as we are concerned and certainly as far as our needs go, she flew.
  • Wet vessel. Had heard she was a wet vessel. We had plenty of rain and I now have no idea what people are talking about. Everything inside stayed dry during and after rain. When I sailed when it was raining I got wet. Not sure I see anything wrong with this picture.
Thatís it for now. I think you can tell we are more than pleased with Dignity. Iím not sure Iíve ever experienced anything where my expectations were exceeded multiple times. We took a big leap of faith when we bought the boat off spec. The first pics in August 2006 were a delight. Seeing a 420 at the boat shows in 2006 and 2007 was again a very pleasant surprise. Spending a week on Dignity upped the experience again.
I have also received a lot of feedback from guests. Apart from the first guest (who has been very vocal on this board) the comments have been very good. I have posted a number of those comments on my website.
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Old 10-03-2008, 22:04   #919
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Boat: Currently between boats; last owned/lived aboard my Lagoon 410.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ess105 View Post
Yes. She entered the fleet last August and we finally managed to spend a week aboard just a few weeks ago. Here is the critique that I posted on my own blog :

I have also received a lot of feedback from guests. Apart from the first guest (who has been very vocal on this board) the comments have been very good. I have posted a number of those comments on my website.
Thanks for the "blog" it was very informative. I would like to hear more about the electric engines. I wonder how their performance compares with a diesel equipped vessel. I believe Lagoon is putting 40hp Yanmars in the 420s.
I'm sorry to hear the "sugar scoops" are too short for the dinghy to stay on the davits while at the dock. I thought that was a nice feature of the 410s. When I would med moor in Martinique I could drop the dink at the 410's stern which was near the dock and "push" the dink out under the bridge deck. It was a good size rigid hull inflatable. BTW how is the bridge deck clearance?
I assume the electric motors use a solid shaft thru the hull. I think I would like that. I did not like the saildrive concept for a number of reasons.
I wonder if hauling the topping lift in a foot would help the sailcars move better??
I look forward to hearing more about your new boat. Good Luck!
Ed...
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Old 11-03-2008, 04:58   #920
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I'm pretty sure the 40hp engines will outperform the electric. I was motoring at times at close to 7 knots - the diesels should do better. It depends on what you want. The experience of silent motoring is priceless. When were were stopped in Soper's Hole a couple of guests from a nearby cat came over for a visit. When we left the area we motored past them just a few feet away. We were just gliding through the water. Their captain gunned their engines just to show the difference. That was cool.

The dinghy on the davits 'issue' is not such a big deal. What you describe on the 410 is exactly what we had to do and this is what I was referring to as an extra step. This is just me looking for downsides on what I think is a great boat.

I found the bridgedeck clearance very good. I haven't been on enough cats to really compare. We were out in some messy water in places and were slapped a few times. The slaps were a lot lighter than slaps I've had on other boats. I put this down to the nacelle which is supposed to break the wave before it hits.

Yes - the shafts are solid. Keeps it simple and the losses down. Makes the delivery of electric power very efficient.

You may be right about the topping lift - I'll experiment next time I'm aboard.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:00   #921
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Greetings from the far North,

We have just signed a purchase agreement for a L420 40hp diesel to be built starting in June. While in Miami we did a demo sail on the L420 75hp. Our impression was that the boat sailed slow (5kts in 15kts apparent @ 80degrees) which was a concern because we were thinking that the 40hp diesel version would be slow too. After talking to some prop guys we learned about the BAR or blade area ratio which is essentially the area of the prop blades in relation to the total area of the circle scribed by the tip of the blades. Apparently the higher the engine horsepower the higher the BAR (and dia.) to transmit the power to the water. Therefore the props on the higher hp engines present more drag when sailing. We expect that our 40hp boat will be faster than the 75hp version and we are looking at adding folding props to up the speed a little more. An interesting side note: we took a demo sail on a diesel electric cat with folding props and when in reverse the whole boat shook due to cavitation. Is this common with folding props and has anyone had a similar experience?
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:09   #922
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Cavitation suggests the folding props were not folding.
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Old 12-03-2008, 13:20   #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskagator View Post
Greetings from the far North,

We have just signed a purchase agreement for a L420 40hp diesel to be built starting in June. While in Miami we did a demo sail on the L420 75hp. Our impression was that the boat sailed slow (5kts in 15kts apparent @ 80degrees) which was a concern because we were thinking that the 40hp diesel version would be slow too. After talking to some prop guys we learned about the BAR or blade area ratio which is essentially the area of the prop blades in relation to the total area of the circle scribed by the tip of the blades. Apparently the higher the engine horsepower the higher the BAR (and dia.) to transmit the power to the water. Therefore the props on the higher hp engines present more drag when sailing. We expect that our 40hp boat will be faster than the 75hp version and we are looking at adding folding props to up the speed a little more. An interesting side note: we took a demo sail on a diesel electric cat with folding props and when in reverse the whole boat shook due to cavitation. Is this common with folding props and has anyone had a similar experience?
It is strange to have a diesel electric cat that can regenerate to have folding props because with folding props it is impossible to regenerate. If the boat was equipped with folding props it could be that one of the blades did not fully come out or a imbalance in the props.
You will be faster with the 40 hp engines while sailing I would advise you not to use folding props but use a 3 blade feathering prop like the Austraulian autostreams that way you have the best of 2 worlds less resistance while sailing but much better efficiency while motoring.
A Lagoon 420 will never be a fast sailor but this will improve overall sailing quality,s
Greetings and happy sailing with your new cat.
Gideon
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Old 14-03-2008, 14:16   #924
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Hi,
new owners and novice sailors of a hybrid 420 - and again our home for the next 5 or so years. We have had a lot of teething problems being exaserbated by being half way around the world from our dealer. I would back up the assessment of Dignity on most points and just love the accomodation.
On the cars - We have applied dry lube to the bottom section of the track and this has worked well to overcome the problem - almost.

On the Dighy / davits we have tied the dinghy high on the davits with short bridles(angling towards the boat) when in a marina and we have not yet (okay once) hit a power pole in any of the marinas we have been in - just a thought.

We will be putting a rail on the starboard sugarscoop to make getting in and out of the dinghy easier.

Regeneration, whilst originally a problem is now at the level I would like - 12-15 amps at 72v.

Speed - have acheived 1/2 wind speed with regeneration but am not yet experienced enough to get it all the time
The speed under motor at about 75 amps was 6 knots when we picked up the boat but since the regeneration was fixed - 5.5 is about the best we can do - what is everyone else getting at what amps.
I have spoken about getting tachos fitted - not a hard job with standard available equipment - but I am waiting until after the G2 before I make the decision.
If things are sorted out with G2, I think that this is definately the way to go. Have you had any advice on the solar panels with the hybrid - I was advised not to add to the power generation system until there was a bit more stability in the system.

Hope this is good info and will provide more as we get the boat sorted - we only have about 1400miles on the clock all in the European / African Atlantic
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Old 20-03-2008, 20:30   #925
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Hi,
new owners and novice sailors of a hybrid 420 - and again our home for the next 5 or so years. We have had a lot of teething problems being exaserbated by being half way around the world from our dealer. I would back up the assessment of Dignity on most points and just love the accomodation.
On the cars - We have applied dry lube to the bottom section of the track and this has worked well to overcome the problem - almost.

On the Dighy / davits we have tied the dinghy high on the davits with short bridles(angling towards the boat) when in a marina and we have not yet (okay once) hit a power pole in any of the marinas we have been in - just a thought.

We will be putting a rail on the starboard sugarscoop to make getting in and out of the dinghy easier.

Regeneration, whilst originally a problem is now at the level I would like - 12-15 amps at 72v.

Speed - have acheived 1/2 wind speed with regeneration but am not yet experienced enough to get it all the time
The speed under motor at about 75 amps was 6 knots when we picked up the boat but since the regeneration was fixed - 5.5 is about the best we can do - what is everyone else getting at what amps.
I have spoken about getting tachos fitted - not a hard job with standard available equipment - but I am waiting until after the G2 before I make the decision.
If things are sorted out with G2, I think that this is definately the way to go. Have you had any advice on the solar panels with the hybrid - I was advised not to add to the power generation system until there was a bit more stability in the system.

Hope this is good info and will provide more as we get the boat sorted - we only have about 1400miles on the clock all in the European / African Atlantic
Welcome aboard Karend. I'm interested in what you've learned about adding tachometers. As you saw from my post, some feed back on the revs would be very helpful at times.

I too am cautious about upgrading the electronics until after the G2 but I am looking hard at preparing Dignity to have plenty of solar power. Along with the engineers at CatCo we've looked at a few options and right now I'm favouring the Outback combination of MPPT for the solar power and their inverters. They have a very scalable solution. There inverters can be paralleled up which gives me future extensibility. Both their MPPT and inverters can tee up into a single controller. The support guy at Xantrex told me their MPPT and inverters were not compatible even though they both used Xanbus. Pity about that as I quite liked their controller and the brand seems good.

I haven't made my mind up yet about which solar panels. Plenty of threads on this board about that.
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Old 21-03-2008, 16:46   #926
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How's it feel to be Lagoon's guinea pigs?
If car companies put out products like this they'd be up to their eyeballs in lawsuits.
It's interesting to see people get screwed and somehow enjoy it.
Does that mentality set in at a certain spending level?
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Old 21-03-2008, 20:05   #927
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Badgerman,

You don't own a boat. You are not qualified to run a boat, so you hire a captain to run the boats you charter. However, you still find the arrogance to ridicule owners of boats as if your opinion actually mattered. Give it a rest.
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Old 21-03-2008, 20:24   #928
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Chartering is not owning

Here's a verbatim paragraph from a cruiser's website regarding some electric catamaran charterer's in the Virgin Islands in May 2007:

"The two couples that we had just met chartered a 42 foot catamaran from one of the local charter companies. All of the catamarans have ďescape hatchesĒ, which are pretty much identical to the ventilation hatches on the cabin tops, except that they are positioned low on the hull, near the waterline. Their purpose is to allow you to climb out of the hull if the boat was to flip upside down. No naming names but someone in this picture (woman in white bikini top) almost sunk their original charter cat. Seems that she was uncomfortably hot while sleeping, so she opened the nearest port that she could find. Unfortunately, it wasn't a ventilation port, it was the escape hatch. YepÖthe escape hatch. Next day, they took off for their next destination. No one thought to close the escape hatch, since itís never opened anyway. A little while later, the engine quit. To make matters worse, this was a brand new boat that had unique (and expensive) electric engines. You guessed itÖthe engine compartment had flooded due to the open escape hatch. So they closed the hatch, pumped out the water, dried everything out and returned to the charter company, complaining loudly that the engine just quit. To compensate, the charter company upgraded them to a much larger, nicer catamaran at no extra cost! They almost sunk the damn boat, and got upgraded for their efforts!"
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Old 21-03-2008, 21:38   #929
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Badgerman,

You don't own a boat. You are not qualified to run a boat, so you hire a captain to run the boats you charter. However, you still find the arrogance to ridicule owners of boats as if your opinion actually mattered. Give it a rest.
I do own a boat you silly goose......
Boating is really simple.......in fact you can run a boat in a quite drunken state.......witness the BVI
Flying my airplane in hard IFR is much tougher.......never to be done hopping from bar to bar
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Old 21-03-2008, 21:44   #930
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Originally Posted by Tourmaline View Post
Here's a verbatim paragraph from a cruiser's website regarding some electric catamaran charterer's in the Virgin Islands in May 2007:

"The two couples that we had just met chartered a 42 foot catamaran from one of the local charter companies. All of the catamarans have ďescape hatchesĒ, which are pretty much identical to the ventilation hatches on the cabin tops, except that they are positioned low on the hull, near the waterline. Their purpose is to allow you to climb out of the hull if the boat was to flip upside down. No naming names but someone in this picture (woman in white bikini top) almost sunk their original charter cat. Seems that she was uncomfortably hot while sleeping, so she opened the nearest port that she could find. Unfortunately, it wasn't a ventilation port, it was the escape hatch. YepÖthe escape hatch. Next day, they took off for their next destination. No one thought to close the escape hatch, since itís never opened anyway. A little while later, the engine quit. To make matters worse, this was a brand new boat that had unique (and expensive) electric engines. You guessed itÖthe engine compartment had flooded due to the open escape hatch. So they closed the hatch, pumped out the water, dried everything out and returned to the charter company, complaining loudly that the engine just quit. To compensate, the charter company upgraded them to a much larger, nicer catamaran at no extra cost! They almost sunk the damn boat, and got upgraded for their efforts!"
The 42 we chartered didn't have opening escape hatches......they had breakables with hammer nearby.
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