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Old 11-12-2007, 13:09   #871
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Originally Posted by planetoftheapes View Post
Gee, the L420 is doing fine for a very, very comfortable cruiser. Please keep in mind that the big props and regeneration drops speed by at least 0.5 knts. Let's see 17 days x 24 hours x 0.5 knts = 200 miles approx. Add that 200 miles and she's right up there.

Also, I've seen the displacement of the diesel 420 written as low as 25K lbs. That is 4000lbs less that the hybrid. Removing this weight should add a bit of speed as well.

Regardless, I plan using this boat as my home, maybe sailing 5% of the time. The fact that she can make a long passage in about the same speed as most other boats in her size range is great. Badger, a L440 would now cost me nearly twice what I paid for my L420. I would rather spend an extra day or two at sea then at work saving another $300K.

Badger, can you explain why Lagoon has sold something like 150 L420s?

Good salesmen? Lots of people bought pintos too.
The diesel version might be ok.
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Old 11-12-2007, 17:46   #872
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Good salesmen? Lots of people bought pintos too.
Using a Pinto is proving you don't really know about the Pinto.
It was a pretty good little car.
The crap about the gas tanks exploding was just that, crap. And a lie.
In the big news expose they did they had to use pyrotechnics for the film because the staged accidents could not get the tanks to blow.
Will you use Firestone tires and the Explorer next?
In case you do, remember that the Explorer is just another SUV (and in my opinion a crappy one but that matters not here) that has a higher center of gravity.
Also remember that the problem ones (those the news loves to stick in your face at 6 O'Clock) were driving at high speeds, were overloaded (most)and had under-inflated tires.
Don't forget that!
If these instances were sailing related we would be shaking our heads saying things like, they should have checked the weather, they should have known the risks, they should have had safety harnesses, the stock bilge pumps were crap, the mast was too tall, the keels were too deep and tripped her, the rudders are too small (big), or some other such thing.

What crap.

Sorry for the rant.
I must be in a bad mood right now.
Sorry.

Viva La Lagoon!!!!..........err.......... that is French huh?

Well.............never mind.

Lets just enjoy the rest of the thread.
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Old 11-12-2007, 17:57   #873
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Ethics in Engineering Practice and ... - Google Book Search
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Old 12-12-2007, 02:20   #874
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Maybe Badgerman you should have used the anomaly of the Sinclair C5, not sure if you knew about this in the states, but look it up and I think you will understand what I mean.
Basically Sinclair was a bit of a UK inventor ie the first small PC 'SinclairZX' then the 'Spectrum' but he also invented a little electric single seater car that was a total flop, look it up on the internet.
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:03   #875
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Good example. Probably sold the same number of units.

Back to the fans - of which there are quite a few - this link has a very enjoyable movie taken aboard Sea Si, 420#42.

Oh - and when I say "very enjoyable" - I am merely expressing my personal opinion. I wouldn't be so bold as to believe my perspective is true for everyone.
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:15   #876
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We'll try her ourself next month...

We've had the Martha R booked for the end of January since last April...long before she arrived in the BVI. We've also been following Badgerman's rants (sorry but you do come across somewhat fanatical about it)of disappointment and Ess105 pleasure with Dignity since her arrival( I very much enjoy your logs and blogs on your site). We're certainly not experts by any means but the other couple we're going with owned their own boat and chartered it for 14 years down there before coming ashore. We have had plenty of time to change our mind but the reason we first chose the Martha R was that sense of adventure of trying the new technology. We're simply looking for a chance to leave the mountain winter behind for a short time and leisurely enjoy the water Yand decided to do it as comfortably as possible(getting older tends to make one think that way). We're not looking to race her, just sail her so have elected not to change our reservation despite her dismasting et al. We'll let you know what we think when we get back. Yes, I realize that she is not completely airconditioned as advertised when we booked but we're counting on this not being a major issue next month. Best if the Holidays to all of you.
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:47   #877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Using a Pinto is proving you don't really know about the Pinto.
It was a pretty good little car.
The crap about the gas tanks exploding was just that, crap. And a lie.
In the big news expose they did they had to use pyrotechnics for the film because the staged accidents could not get the tanks to blow.
Reflecting on the Pinto incident and Ford's attempts to control the damage at the risk of its public image, former Ford exec Lee Iacocca made this summation in his book Talking Straight:
"Clamming up is what we did at Ford in the late '70s when we were bombarded with suits over the Pinto, which was involved in a lot of gas tank fires. The suits might have bankrupted the company, so we kept our mouths shut for fear of saying anything that just one jury might have construed as an admission of guilt. Winning in court was our top priority; nothing else mattered. And of course, our silence added to all the suspicions people had about us and the car."
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:49   #878
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I'm pretty sure Martha R's owner has successfully installed the A/C now. But don't quote me on that.
If you enjoy your time on Martha R only half as much as some of my other charterers you'll have a great time.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:50   #879
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Interesting quote, Gord, especially, "And of course, our silence added to all the suspicions people had about us and the car."

This very issue was a key part of our decision not to continue with the 420. When we ordered the boat, it was "concept" with some not-very-detailed CAD drawings, a model, and some white papers regarding how Lagoon had researched the hybrid system and their beliefs about how it would work. Having been on a few Lagoons, we had a pretty good impression about the build quality, appointments, etc., and felt comfortable with putting in an order. The price was right, too.

After seeing an actual 420 in the flesh, we were disappointed with much of what we saw in terms of build quality and it was clear to me that they were doing everything they could to save money here-and-there by outfitting it with "just good enough" fittings. It was far from over-built in the strength department. Then, when the sailing reports started coming, and the reports of how the hybrid system was both troublesome and far from living up to their early pronouncements, that raised the concern level far more. But, the icing on the cake (for us) was how the company reacted to our concerns and the concerns of others. Most of the time, they were simply silent. When dealing with face-to-face criticism (politely, if pointedly, delivered, I might add), they were defensive and largely inflexible.

For me, I view the purchase of any significantly expensive object to have three overall factors: performance in meeting the objectives, support of the product, and price. The ideal purchase is high on all three, but I can live with a compromise in one of the three. But, when compromises are seen in two of the three, it becomes much less of a desirable purchase. That's what happened, in our view. When the company clammed up and became non-responsive regarding the problems being reported, that did it.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying -- I'm not saying that my opinion should somehow influence someone else's decision. We all have our own operational definitions and tolerances regarding our personal "decision factors". I have no doubt that many, and maybe most, 420 buyers will be pleased by their decision. The hybrid system certainly requires a more "bleeding edge of technology" buyer. But, there will be some blood let -- how much are you willing to bleed for whatever you perceived as the benefit is the question you must answer.

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Old 12-12-2007, 09:10   #880
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But all this non-reaction by Lagoon - IMHO isn't this just a French thing, a bit aloof and a bit arrogant ie 'It doesn't matter' , lets soon introduce some new models and all the old problems will go away and 'There are plenty of fish in the sea'.
Mind you I am starting to find this approach is also being adopted by different companies in different countries around the world I have had dealings with, the level of service is dropping.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:49   #881
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Could be. As with practically everything in life there can be many explanations for what we observe. When the possible explanations are at odds with ones own expectations this doesn't help. ID is right with respect to ones tolerance for the unknown - we all have our own cut off points. I like to think that dealing with the French has extended my cultural experience and in turn broadened my thinking. This, after all, is one of the things that attracts me to cruising.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:57   #882
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So....the Lagoon 420 explodes when rear ended?
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:28   #883
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I'd heard from an industry insider that the lagoon 420 hybrid "was done" and lagoon would be transitioning it to diesel then dropping the hybrid technology until a later date as the customer service claims and negative feedback from the charter side made it financially untenable.
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:15   #884
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Well - they're still advertising and selling the Hybrid. I have also heard rumors stating the exact opposite. I don't think they're worth airing or paying much attention to until we actually see actual results / actions.
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Old 12-12-2007, 15:15   #885
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Good example. Probably sold the same number of units.

Back to the fans - of which there are quite a few - this link has a very enjoyable movie taken aboard Sea Si, 420#42.

Oh - and when I say "very enjoyable" - I am merely expressing my personal opinion. I wouldn't be so bold as to believe my perspective is true for everyone.
Can you tell me how big the movie files are please? After 20 minutes my .5mb 'broadband' has shown nothing despite huge amounts of network traffic. I'm getting bored!
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