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Old 21-11-2007, 16:31   #856
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Originally Posted by preeves View Post
Hello,

My wife and I are very interested in the 420 hybrid. Where is the best place to charter? We are near San Francisco. Do you have to buy it through a broker? Who do you suggest. Does the price very greatly on options chosen. I'm trying to get a handle on what we can expect to pay. We are planning to live aboard after we retire in 2 or 3 years. Thought we should started thinking about the purchase now. I sailed for 10 years in my younger days, but out of the loop now. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
We have owned our 420 for ten weeks and have travelled 2000 miles with ten people aboard. It is a great liveaboard boat, because the accommodation space is immense and well thought out. The hybrid design means you have plenty of electric power available. The 420 has been designed as a weight carrier, partly to handle the extra weight of the batteries, but also to carry the livaboard loads. We have approximately 4 tons of food and equipment aboard, yet she still sails OK.

Like you, we had not sailed for ten years and found the 420 easy to handle. The hybrid system takes a bit of getting used to (so probably not ideal for chartering), but limited experience is probably an advantage here, because you have no preconceptions on how things should be.

There are a lot of options available, many of which seem expensive and others are good value for money. I'll try to get some feedback from other 420 owners and let you know which are good value for money.

One thing is for sure, you get a lot of boat for your money with a 420.

The British Virgin Islands are a great place for rusty sailors to regain their sea legs. There are several 420s available for charter in the area.

Chris
L420, Hull 52, Octopus
Lanzerote, en route to the Caribbean
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Old 21-11-2007, 22:29   #857
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flooring

do any of the lagoon owners know where lagoon got their black flooring? I've been looking at it and it seems to really

1) be practical
2) draw the eye up to the more attractive curves of the saloon
3) accentuate a more modern feeling to the boat rather than try to look like a monohull with wood veneers.

We're looking at replacing the flooring in our boat and that would definitely be an option as we have the tan and white interior that many lagoons have.
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Old 08-12-2007, 18:08   #858
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ARC

I am not sure how this fits with Intentional Drifters excellent ARC analysis: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...alue-6537.html.

This is anecdotal but after around 2000 miles, the "slow" 420 is sailing about the same speed as the other multi-hulls of similar and even quite a bit longer waterline length. This is real world, loaded to cross an ocean. The Lagoon 420 is mid-pack and within one hundred miles of a:

Lagoon 410
Lagoon 500
lagoon 470
Lagoon 380
Broadblue 385
Lagoon 500

The 420 is ahead in terms of distance to finish of:

Athena 38
Orana 44
Bahia 46
Privilege 445

Even one Catana 471 is not all that far ahead of the 420.


There are two Lagoon 440s keeping pace with a Catana 582, Eluthera 60, Lagoon 570, and a Lagoon 55. Given the performance of the 440 in prior ARCs, I believe we can say that the L440 is a fast multi-hull for her waterline, which is really funny because it is heavy with huge accommodations and loads of windage.

The Lagoon 420 is a hybrid 420 that weighs 2500lbs more than the diesel version and drags huge props though the water. Yeah, I think I'll go with the very comfortable, "slow" multi-hull for long range cruising.

Granted, if you can afford a Lagoon 67, you will sail faster.
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Old 08-12-2007, 21:58   #859
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I am not sure how this fits with Intentional Drifters excellent ARC analysis: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...alue-6537.html.

This is anecdotal but after around 2000 miles, the "slow" 420 is sailing about the same speed as the other multi-hulls of similar and even quite a bit longer waterline length. This is real world, loaded to cross an ocean. The Lagoon 420 is mid-pack and within one hundred miles of a:

Lagoon 410
Lagoon 500
lagoon 470
Lagoon 380
Broadblue 385
Lagoon 500

The 420 is ahead in terms of distance to finish of:

Athena 38
Orana 44
Bahia 46
Privilege 445

Even one Catana 471 is not all that far ahead of the 420.


There are two Lagoon 440s keeping pace with a Catana 582, Eluthera 60, Lagoon 570, and a Lagoon 55. Given the performance of the 440 in prior ARCs, I believe we can say that the L440 is a fast multi-hull for her waterline, which is really funny because it is heavy with huge accommodations and loads of windage.

The Lagoon 420 is a hybrid 420 that weighs 2500lbs more than the diesel version and drags huge props though the water. Yeah, I think I'll go with the very comfortable, "slow" multi-hull for long range cruising.

Granted, if you can afford a Lagoon 67, you will sail faster.

Told you the 440 is a kick ass boat......
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:14   #860
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Originally Posted by planetoftheapes View Post
I am not sure how this fits with Intentional Drifters excellent ARC analysis: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...alue-6537.html.

This is anecdotal but after around 2000 miles, the "slow" 420 is sailing about the same speed as the other multi-hulls of similar and even quite a bit longer waterline length. This is real world, loaded to cross an ocean. The Lagoon 420 is mid-pack and within one hundred miles of a:

Lagoon 410
Lagoon 500
lagoon 470
Lagoon 380
Broadblue 385
Lagoon 500

The 420 is ahead in terms of distance to finish of:

Athena 38
Orana 44
Bahia 46
Privilege 445

Even one Catana 471 is not all that far ahead of the 420.


There are two Lagoon 440s keeping pace with a Catana 582, Eluthera 60, Lagoon 570, and a Lagoon 55. Given the performance of the 440 in prior ARCs, I believe we can say that the L440 is a fast multi-hull for her waterline, which is really funny because it is heavy with huge accommodations and loads of windage.

The Lagoon 420 is a hybrid 420 that weighs 2500lbs more than the diesel version and drags huge props though the water. Yeah, I think I'll go with the very comfortable, "slow" multi-hull for long range cruising.

Granted, if you can afford a Lagoon 67, you will sail faster.
Bearing in mind that it appears the wind was behind for most of the trip, then the differences would not be hugely great for heavy displacement cruising cats of a similar size and the more the windage with the wind behind so much the better, if the wind had been more on the nose , IMHO the difference in distance achieved between them would be much greater.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:36   #861
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It is nice to see the L420 hold her own on a long, commonly made, passage.

I don't know if I can legitimately make this statement but it seems, in the real world, loaded down for long-range cruising, along routes commonly traversed, cruising boats sail about the same speed. I believe Intentional Drifter's analysis did not even show a statistically significant correlation between waterline length and crossing speed for cruising boats in prior ARCs.

Hopefully, ID will add the new data and report the results.

As far as cruising boats making long passages to windward, I suspect most make a great effort to avoid this. Do you have data for a group of cruising multi-hulls making a long windward passage? For all we know, the Lagoon 440 would run away with it. I simply don't know. Cruising is not racing. I suspect most would motor as much as possible to reduce slamming and all would motor below theoretical hull speed, making for a close group. Heck, the 75 Hp L420 can motor up to 12 knots and has the ability to carry a great load of fuel. Maybe the L420 would be first to finish in this scenario.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:50   #862
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It is nice to see the L420 hold her own on a long, commonly made, passage.

I don't know if I can legitimately make this statement but it seems, in the real world, loaded down for long-range cruising, along routes commonly traversed, cruising boats sail about the same speed. I believe Intentional Drifter's analysis did not even show a statistically significant correlation between waterline length and crossing speed for cruising boats in prior ARCs.

Hopefully, ID will add the new data and report the results.

As far as cruising boats making long passages to windward, I suspect most make a great effort to avoid this. Do you have data for a group of cruising multi-hulls making a long windward passage? For all we know, the Lagoon 440 would run away with it. I simply don't know. Cruising is not racing. I suspect most would motor as much as possible to reduce slamming and all would motor below theoretical hull speed, making for a close group. Heck, the 75 Hp L420 can motor up to 12 knots and has the ability to carry a great load of fuel. Maybe the L420 would be first to finish in this scenario.
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Old 09-12-2007, 13:22   #863
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You won't really know about the relative performance until the handicap results are posted. A lot of ARC boats do the crossing just with white sails - me included - so those that do use gennaker/spinnaker may appear to be going very quickly. When the handicap and motoring hours are calculated the results may appear very different.

Having said that I do have to comment on the apparent lack of performance of the one Privilege in the fleet... They are going so slowly in such fast conditions I cannot believe it. We took 17 days sailing very conservatively, in an almost identical boat, loaded to the gunwhales and the one this year looks like taking at least 21 days
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Old 09-12-2007, 15:49   #864
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I certainly do not disagree with your assertions, I am looking at this from a different perspective. In the real world of cruising there is no handicap. There are simply cruising boats with cruising sailors going from point A to point B. Most events occur in a normal distribution so I try to speak of the average cruiser. The outliers tend to cancel each other out if a sufficient number of data points are collected.

My point is that the hype surrounding which multi-hulls are fast and which are slow means little to the average, middle to the bell shaped curve, cruiser. Take a lightweight, "fast" cat and load her down with gear, provisions and crew and she will sail, on average, with the rest of the fleet. My view is that most "average" cruisers are unwilling to push their boats beyond theoretical hull-speed in the middle of the Atlantic. A heavily loaded catamaran, on average, will have a difficult time sailing for extended periods above hull-speed and will sail more like her mono-hull cousins.

From my perspective it makes no sense for the average cruiser to live a spartan lifestyle on an Outremer with the hope of sailing faster. The average cruiser will make a passage in greater comfort, and about the same speed on a Lagoon. Besides, your wife will be happier on a beautiful Lagoon. Enjoy!
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Old 09-12-2007, 20:19   #865
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She's 19th out of 24 boats, looking at her course history, she recorded a maximum of 7 knots and a minimum of 5 knots, about the exact same as the lagoon 380 Tu Can Tango, immediately in front of her. I would assume they are doing what most cruisers would do, motoring in low wind to achieve a minimum of 5 knots and then just sailing above that. Having a fast boat behind you really doesn't prove anything, as any boat can have mishaps, inexperienced crew who can't sail, etc. Looking at the days and the speeds it would appear that the Catana 471 was doing 7 knots when she was doing 5 knots and was doing 8 to 9 knots when she was doing 6 to 7. Nothing shocking here and a little pointless. Most don't get a cat to blow everyone away at the races, but for stability, comfort, dual engines, and (for me most importantly) ample reserve bouyancy.
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Old 10-12-2007, 22:34   #866
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There's a huge percentage difference between 7 and 5 knots. The 420 hybrid has a crappy ride too......I wouldn't be suprised if the electrics were running to get the 6-7 knots either.
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:49   #867
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Anyone who is seriously interested should take a look at Sea Si's logs on the ARC website. There you'll get a better sense of how she's handling, what her speeds really are, how much time they're spending motoring, how much they are enjoying themselves, how well they are eating ;-)

Here is a link.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:10   #868
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Does it really matter? 7 knots or 5 knots they still get to spend the winter in the islands.

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There's a huge percentage difference between 7 and 5 knots. The 420 hybrid has a crappy ride too......I wouldn't be suprised if the electrics were running to get the 6-7 knots either.
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Old 11-12-2007, 09:40   #869
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Does it really matter? 7 knots or 5 knots they still get to spend the winter in the islands.
Might really matter if you're trying to avoid weather.
Same with aircraft.......performance is important.

I'm just saying from my experience the Lagoon 440 makes the 420 hybrid look really bad.
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:21   #870
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Gee, the L420 is doing fine for a very, very comfortable cruiser. Please keep in mind that the big props and regeneration drops speed by at least 0.5 knts. Let's see 17 days x 24 hours x 0.5 knts = 200 miles approx. Add that 200 miles and she's right up there.

Also, I've seen the displacement of the diesel 420 written as low as 25K lbs. That is 4000lbs less that the hybrid. Removing this weight should add a bit of speed as well.

Regardless, I plan using this boat as my home, maybe sailing 5% of the time. The fact that she can make a long passage in about the same speed as most other boats in her size range is great. Badger, a L440 would now cost me nearly twice what I paid for my L420. I would rather spend an extra day or two at sea then at work saving another $300K.

Badger, can you explain why Lagoon has sold something like 150 L420s?
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