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Old 21-09-2007, 13:30   #796
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As I have stated before, I (we) had a great time. We knew we were experimenting with a new boat and were intrigued with the motoring silently concept. As to why Badgerman needed an instructional Capt. is beyond me. The battery bank had 5 well defined positions, the sails are the same, albiet a little small, the throttles work like diesels, what was so confusing? Our briefer admittedly was somewhat familiar with the boat. Catco, Horizon and TMM sent people to Miami for instruction on the 420. Yes, we had a few issues with the 420. I've had issues with almost every charter boat we have rented, non have been perfect. As you all know by now my main issue was the lack of A/C as promised. This was not TMM's fault as I chartered directly from the owner. The owner's offer of a free sleep aboard was totally unacceptable, but I move on. I would not charter a boat without diesel engines again. One last comment, what in the hell is niggly? and I prefer Pegg's and Genaker to Mulligans, IMHO

We had an instructional captain so we could bareboat the next time.
This was our first sailing experience. However, our captain had alot of experience on everything from raceboats to mega yachts.

The 440 made sense and we(5 family members) learned alot.
The 420 was just not a fun boat.......sorry.
The main problem is it is overweight and underpowered.
The 440 was very nice.

Also......the number 4 position on the batteries did not work at all.
For a new boat(Dignity) it sure had problems.
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Old 21-09-2007, 13:32   #797
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Still no answers on how you push such a heavy boat with such a low powered motor
without using full power ALOT
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Old 21-09-2007, 13:59   #798
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Badgerman - the differences between electric motor and diesel motor performance and why direct HP comparisons are not appropriate has been much discussed. Look it up. As a novice the research will help you build your knowledge. Barging around like a bull in a china shop (on this board) then expecting answers is somewhat naive.

Perhaps you should enlighten us who it was who wrote on your feedback form that you had a great time. You don't have to answer if you don't want to but by the look of it, you're either directly contradicting yourself or misrepresenting sentiment expressed by your family. Kind of helps if you at least try to be consistent and/or truthful.
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Old 21-09-2007, 14:13   #799
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Be nice Steve. ;-)
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Old 21-09-2007, 14:18   #800
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Badger, surely you realize that boats like cars come with different engine options. Which one you choose is a personal matter. Many cars come with 4 cyl, 6 cyl or 8. I would guess for you anything under 8, you would consider underpowered. Other people have different priorities. Bigger motors ultimately consume more fuel. If your boat didn't go fast enough to get you where you wanted to go, perhaps your expectations were to high. Perhaps you should have allowed more time for sailing or picked a closer island or started earlier in the day. That's part of trip planning. Lots of boats will always go faster than the one you are on regardless of how big your engines or sails are.
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Old 21-09-2007, 14:27   #801
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Badgerman - the differences between electric motor and diesel motor performance and why direct HP comparisons are not appropriate has been much discussed. Look it up. As a novice the research will help you build your knowledge. Barging around like a bull in a china shop (on this board) then expecting answers is somewhat naive.

Perhaps you should enlighten us who it was who wrote on your feedback form that you had a great time. You don't have to answer if you don't want to but by the look of it, you're either directly contradicting yourself or misrepresenting sentiment expressed by your family. Kind of helps if you at least try to be consistent and/or truthful.
OK.....
We had a great time........in spite of your boat.......the first week on the 440 was great.
On your boat we just didn't go very far or sail much.......still went diving etc.......we tried to trade out for another 440 but none available.
Sorry.....but power is power.....F=ma......you have a heavy boat with a lower force output.......slow acceleration and with a high drag level equals slow top speed. Granted electrics have a flatter torque curve......but diesels have a pretty flat curve also. And if your peak power is 13hp or whatever.......good luck
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Old 21-09-2007, 14:47   #802
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Badger, surely you realize that boats like cars come with different engine options. Which one you choose is a personal matter. Many cars come with 4 cyl, 6 cyl or 8. I would guess for you anything under 8, you would consider underpowered. Other people have different priorities. Bigger motors ultimately consume more fuel. If your boat didn't go fast enough to get you where you wanted to go, perhaps your expectations were to high. Perhaps you should have allowed more time for sailing or picked a closer island or started earlier in the day. That's part of trip planning. Lots of boats will always go faster than the one you are on regardless of how big your engines or sails are.

I believe the 440 we had for the first week has about the same hp as your 440......about 54x2
Perhaps you're treating me like some sort of moron.
I've been on many boats, fished on many different power boats. I own my own turboprop, have a pilots license with multi-engine and instument ratings. I majored in chemical engineering so I don't need your lecture about power......I understand hp, torque, rxf, etc,etc.
Obviously if I was going for pure speed I would have chartered a gunboat
or such.

If you think the 420 is so great.......go charter one......make sure you have a good wind blowing when you try to motor upwind or dock with the bow blowing around.

Just because you own a nice boat doesn't mean you have to be the hero of the not so fortunate.
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Old 21-09-2007, 15:03   #803
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ok guys
remember we are talking about sailboats
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Old 22-09-2007, 08:32   #804
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We live a fast paced life, owning a restaurant. The last thing we want to do on a vacation is be in a hurry, especially sailing. Mr. Engineer, work out these numbers, sailing 10 miles, say Cooper to VG under power at 7kts or 5kts, how much more time is it really? Maybe one more Carib, or 2 songs on the Ipod, maybe one less mooring ball available, come on, lighten up. I won't charter one again and neither will you, so let it be. Steve has never bragged or put you down for being less fortunate, or not being able to afford your own boat.
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Old 22-09-2007, 09:30   #805
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We live a fast paced life, owning a restaurant. The last thing we want to do on a vacation is be in a hurry, especially sailing. Mr. Engineer, work out these numbers, sailing 10 miles, say Cooper to VG under power at 7kts or 5kts, how much more time is it really? Maybe one more Carib, or 2 songs on the Ipod, maybe one less mooring ball available, come on, lighten up. I won't charter one again and neither will you, so let it be. Steve has never bragged or put you down for being less fortunate, or not being able to afford your own boat.
Thanks for the defense s2w but I really don't think it is needed. By way of an example, here's how I relate to Badgers comments.

Last year, I was under instruction (BWSS in FLL) over the course of a week aboard one of their boats. On the first day we were making our way out of the cut into the ocean. Wind was on the nose, and the boat was going nowhere. What did we do? Well we sailed out. At no point did it occur to me to get on the internet and pan the sailboat for it's inability to motor into wind. Actually - I found it quite exhilarating tacking out the channel, avoiding the other craft with the boat bashing about in the chop. Even when I hollered over the leeward rail to Neptune afterwards - all part of the deal. But that's me.

So how are people going to view Badger's comments? Some people will look at his comments and see them simply as an indication of where Badger is on his learning curve. Others may not. If he scares an inexperienced sailor away from chartering my boat then am I going to curse him or thank him? Do I think he's reduced the chances of my boat being used for basic training? Maybe yes (to the extent this board can influence these matters which is debate in of itself). Am I worried about this? Quite the opposite.

Let Badgerman rant.
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Old 22-09-2007, 10:03   #806
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Mr. Engineer, work out these numbers, sailing 10 miles, say Cooper to VG under power at 7kts or 5kts, how much more time is it really? Maybe one more Carib, or 2 songs on the Ipod, maybe one less mooring ball available, come on, lighten up. I won't charter one again and neither will you, so let it be.
Chartering a boat in the Virgins, owning a charter boat and owning and living (cruising) on a boat are three very different things with different requirements.

Chartering in the Virgins - everyone always has a great time notwithstanding the condition of the boat. You're on vacation, short sails, nice weather nearly all the time. We chartered what turned out to be a really bad boat once but still had a great time. In a pinch most any boat will do.

Owning a charter boat - the considerations are very different, it should be a business venture (albeit not too good a one).

Owning and cruising - this is your home now. All the time or at least a lot of the time. It's no longer just going from Roadtown to Little Harbour on Peter Is. All sorts of weather, longer trips and no chase boat to replace an impeller or whatever. In these circumstances what you require in a boat will be very different from a two week charter.

My point is that you can have a great time on a rotten boat chartering but if you're going cruising, a poor boat will make life difficult. Buying an unproven boat or relying on unproven technology might not be the best idea.
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Old 22-09-2007, 11:03   #807
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We live a fast paced life, owning a restaurant. The last thing we want to do on a vacation is be in a hurry, especially sailing. Mr. Engineer, work out these numbers, sailing 10 miles, say Cooper to VG under power at 7kts or 5kts, how much more time is it really? Maybe one more Carib, or 2 songs on the Ipod, maybe one less mooring ball available, come on, lighten up. I won't charter one again and neither will you, so let it be. Steve has never bragged or put you down for being less fortunate, or not being able to afford your own boat.
"Mr Engineer"(that's not even what I do).....is that some sort of slam ......"Mr Hash Slopper?"
You have NO clue as to my financial situation.
Lets just say with the 440 we sailed around the north side of Anegada in 25-30 knots with 7-12 foot seas and had a great time SAILING.
I would say we covered close to 100 miles that day.
I would not even try it on the 420.
My opinion is the 420 is a poorly executed boat.......but feel free to buy one..........I'm looking at other options.........makes me glad I chartered first before writing the big check.

Consider the topic dropped
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Old 22-09-2007, 11:40   #808
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Buying an unproven boat or relying on unproven technology might not be the best idea.
Or, it may be just the thing for you. I bought my Lagoon 380 before the first one was built and have never regretted it. Some people are "early adopters", some people expect everything to be exactly as they envision it. Both approaches are fine and frankly needed in any endeavor. I think the important thing is to realize to what degree you're in either camp and go with what you enjoy.
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Old 23-09-2007, 18:12   #809
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WOW, 100 miles in one day on a charter boat. Was that 10 hours at a 10kt average?
or 12 hours averageing 8kts? You are right case closed.
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Old 23-09-2007, 18:33   #810
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WOW, 100 miles in one day on a charter boat. Was that 10 hours at a 10kt average?
or 12 hours averageing 8kts? You are right case closed.
I'm sure you realize that anyone on a charter vacation in the BVIs is hardly sailing 12 hrs from 7am to 7pm.
I myself was broad reaching from Annegada to Cane Garden Bay in average 20 kn breezes and 10-12 ft seas. We saw 10 kn or better for 5 hours. We were surfing at 11.5 consistently as we picked up wave after wave. Being only a former monohull sailor who only heard about surfing, I was thrilled.
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