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Old 12-09-2007, 19:58   #751
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I can't comment on whether all the repairs were made. I really doubt the 10 kts on most normal circumstances, considering the structure of the hull and the displacement. She is designed for comfort, which no one ever complains about. The facts are: she moves quite a bit at anchor or mooring, she is a very wet boat, anyone who has chartered one or owns one knows exactly what I am talking about, the sheets leading back to the cockpit are a cluster, on our boat none were labeled, the location of the electrical panel is a joke, the table in the cockpit was some sort of sushi table, another joke, literally, the table is at knee level, whats with that? Good luck to all the current and future owners. I personally would never buy or charter another 420. I do enjoy reading the thread. I wonder how the Lundy brothers are doing? Tell us how the Martha R is doing. Steve, have you talked to the Lundys? You spend over a half a million on a boat, i don't blame you for defending it.
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Old 12-09-2007, 23:18   #752
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she is a very wet boat, anyone who has chartered one or owns one knows exactly what I am talking about, the sheets leading back to the cockpit are a cluster, on our boat none were labeled, the location of the electrical panel is a joke, the table in the cockpit was some sort of sushi table, another joke, literally, the table is at knee level, whats with that?
  • A wet boat - yes perhaps. We did notice the early morning dew tended to drip around the helm from the bimini and presumably it is worse if it rains. I can imagine that we will make some minor modifications to improve this.
  • Crowded helm/cluster of sheets - yes perhaps. All our sheets are labelled and colour coded, but there were a lot of them in a small area. I view this as an unavoidable consequence of making it possible to sail this boat single-handed and frankly we never found it a problem - it just needs a bit of discipline and organisation. We didn't have to tack at all, so I don't yet know how it will work when life gets exciting, but I don't anticipate any problems.
  • Location of electrical panel - I haven't found this a problem at all.
  • Knee level table - We foresaw that this would be a problem and so ordered a full size table for cockpit and saloon.
Chris
L420, Hull 52, Octopus
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Old 12-09-2007, 23:29   #753
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  • A wet boat - yes perhaps. We did notice the early morning dew tended to drip around the helm from the bimini and presumably it is worse if it rains. I can imagine that we will make some minor modifications to improve this.
  • Crowded helm/cluster of sheets - yes perhaps. All our sheets are labelled and colour coded, but there were a lot of them in a small area. I view this as an unavoidable consequence of making it possible to sail this boat single-handed and frankly we never found it a problem - it just needs a bit of discipline and organisation. We didn't have to tack at all, so I don't yet know how it will work when life gets exciting, but I don't anticipate any problems.
  • Location of electrical panel - I haven't found this a problem at all.
  • Knee level table - We foresaw that this would be a problem and so ordered a full size table for cockpit and saloon.
Chris
L420, Hull 52, Octopus
I'm glad you like your boat. Sail it awhile and when you get a chance jump on a Lagoon 440 (Windancer for example thru catco in the BVI)
I think you would jump on the chance to swap.
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Old 13-09-2007, 04:34   #754
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Badgerman,

You've drawn a lot of comparisons between the 420 and 440 but not told us much about the 440. As we all know they are not all the same. There can be vast differences between them. Was it a bareboat charter vessel with the smaller rig or, perhaps, at the other extreme a liveaboard boat with the larger rig, larger engines, with full amenities? Maybe something in between. Without this information it's hard to tell where you're coming from. Nor will we come any closer to understanding the differences between various peoples experiences of the boat which, as we're seeing, are quite different.

At the end of the day (and this has been said on so many threads) you'll have your preferences for your own reasons.
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Old 13-09-2007, 04:51   #755
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  • Crowded helm/cluster of sheets - yes perhaps. All our sheets are labelled and colour coded, but there were a lot of them in a small area. I view this as an unavoidable consequence of making it possible to sail this boat single-handed and frankly we never found it a problem - it just needs a bit of discipline and organisation. We didn't have to tack at all, so I don't yet know how it will work when life gets exciting, but I don't anticipate any problems.
This is a good example of features being a question of individual perspective. If you're looking for a boat that can be single handed without running around and/or contorting yourself then you're going to have to bring your lines close together. The 420s are shipped with extra long lines and until they are trimmed I can see why this can become an extra problem. So for some people this is a plus, some it's not. If Badgerman and sail2wind prefer different arrangements then kudos to them - I respect that. Doesn't make this arrangement worse - only different.
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Old 13-09-2007, 05:04   #756
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You spend over a half a million on a boat, i don't blame you for defending it.
Yes I am defending the boat. But not, as you imply, for the money invested in it. I am genuinely pleased with my purchase and wishing away every day I have to work before moving aboard full time.

I had the pleasure of talking to you in person and I've read your and Badgerman's non too constructive criticisms. Based on all the information I have these criticisms all fall down into one of the following categories
  • Features you dislike but I do (like the single handing features)
  • Early adoption issues (like the electrical issues you had and all the consequent symptoms)
  • Issues that go away when understood and behaviors adapted (every boat has these in one form or another)
  • Genuine issues that will either have to be lived with (again - I know no boat where you don't have to compromise somewhere) or will get fixed.
  • Observations that I either simply don't agree with or think are simply unwarranted (like your and Badgerman's ridiculing of the the genaker winch)
Although I myself wouldn't use the same manner as you in raising your observations, I do take note of them and form opinions based on them. I would prefer constructive criticism as this would benefit all. But I can do without.

In the meantime I continue to look forward to my future and welcome the strong order book I'm getting on my boat in the meantime.

Oh - and just to correct the financial picture. The only funds committed to this boat are the loss of implied revenues on payments made on the boat plus the balance between value paid and current expected value (less commissions) plus costs/incomes through charter. This is the only way to look at an asset. Because I bought in very early on, this is still a positive number for me. Please don't think I'm defending a sunk 1/2 million cost because I am not.
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Old 13-09-2007, 05:31   #757
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Plenty of big cats can be sailed single handed without all the sheets and halyards running back to a single point,

gee I've raced single handed and in tacking duals on my 32 footer, so I'd imagine just about anybody competent could cruise a 42 footer.

Dave
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Old 13-09-2007, 05:41   #758
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Dave - I'm with you on my personal capabilitys. I am comfortable single handing my 32 foot cutter and that's not set up so I can do everything from the helm.

But that's not the whole story.

I have my wife's requirements to think about too. Perhaps you are lucky enough to have a partner able to single hand in the manner we are or unlucky enough to have noone to take with you. Either way, it sounds like your circumstances are different to mine. Horses for courses mate.
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Old 13-09-2007, 07:04   #759
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Fair enough mate, Just pointing out for some (obviously not all) everything in one place would be a pain especially if there is not enough room to have crew help if you need/want it.

The helm position looks a bit busy and I would imagine you would have a couple of people falling over each other.

Dave
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Old 13-09-2007, 15:46   #760
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Chris, the forward windows, when opened, even slightly after rain, will flood the nav. station. In our case destroying my son's cell phone and anything else on that shelf above radio. The electrical panel, please, convenient if you are a midget, sorry height challenged. You literally have to walk down the stairs, open the plexiglass door towards you, and bring a flashlight. And the cockpit table, what in the hell was Lagoon thinking about. The 420 at the Miami show had 2 large tables.

Badgerman, I agree with Steve the 440 and 420 are so different, tough to compare. Personally, I do not like the isolated cockpit of the 440. The rest of the layout is very nice, especially the interior. It is nice to be at the helm with your guests.

Steve, No disrespect intended. We had a great trip, tough not to in the BVI. The owners should have not rushed the charter, the boat was not ready. The A/C was a mandatory requirement, no A/C, no compensation. The boat arriving late was not my fault and we paid over $5000 for an air conditioned boat. As expected, we had a few very uncomfortable night (hot and raining). Yes, if I bought the 420, I could make it very comfortable and sailable. I would add some sort of rain gutter above the salon entrance. I would add a step from the fore deck to the top deck to access the mast. Non skid strips put on the steps into the cabins, very slippery. I am sure you will adapt to your boat, especially after sailing for a month or so. I still am not convinced the electric propulsion system is ready for charter use, private maybe. Most fuel bills have been more and no less then equal to twin deisels, the generators run way too often.
Everyone, let's keep up the dialog, guys, good luck with the Dignity and the Otopus
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Old 13-09-2007, 19:24   #761
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Chris, the forward windows, when opened, even slightly after rain, will flood the nav. station. In our case destroying my son's cell phone and anything else on that shelf above radio. The electrical panel, please, convenient if you are a midget, sorry height challenged. You literally have to walk down the stairs, open the plexiglass door towards you, and bring a flashlight. And the cockpit table, what in the hell was Lagoon thinking about. The 420 at the Miami show had 2 large tables.

Badgerman, I agree with Steve the 440 and 420 are so different, tough to compare. Personally, I do not like the isolated cockpit of the 440. The rest of the layout is very nice, especially the interior. It is nice to be at the helm with your guests.

Steve, No disrespect intended. We had a great trip, tough not to in the BVI. The owners should have not rushed the charter, the boat was not ready. The A/C was a mandatory requirement, no A/C, no compensation. The boat arriving late was not my fault and we paid over $5000 for an air conditioned boat. As expected, we had a few very uncomfortable night (hot and raining). Yes, if I bought the 420, I could make it very comfortable and sailable. I would add some sort of rain gutter above the salon entrance. I would add a step from the fore deck to the top deck to access the mast. Non skid strips put on the steps into the cabins, very slippery. I am sure you will adapt to your boat, especially after sailing for a month or so. I still am not convinced the electric propulsion system is ready for charter use, private maybe. Most fuel bills have been more and no less then equal to twin deisels, the generators run way too often.
Everyone, let's keep up the dialog, guys, good luck with the Dignity and the Otopus
I really liked the 440......the roomy helm made it so we could have several family members on top helping if they wanted or just enjoying the ride.
The helm was easily organized. The ride and speed were much better.
Just overall a way more enjoyable charter.
here's the 44 link
http://catamarans.com/catamaranco/ch...eet.asp&bhcp=1

The 420 was slower and less comfortable and generally disorganized from the helm to the power panel.

I found the 440 to be a kick ass boat.......as did the captain(much to his surprise).
I found the 420 to be a pain in the arse.....as did the captain.
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Old 18-09-2007, 23:58   #762
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Give the man a break

He goes out and spends a lot of money on a new boat. It may not be you guys favorite boat but don't make him feel bad. Why would you want to convince him he made a bad choice. Give him a little support not putting down his boat. He doesn't need to hear all that bs. All boats are tradeoffs. They all have pros and cons. Lets be a little more positive.

"Dignity," Good luck. Mine is parked just down the dock from yours. We'll go over to Mulligans and the first round is on me.
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Old 19-09-2007, 00:33   #763
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The short rig on the 440 is so you can fit under a lot of fixed bridges in the US which are 65 ft at mhw. I chose to not fit under the bridges, keep the very important sail area and live in the Caribbean.
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Old 19-09-2007, 00:46   #764
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my opinion of Catamaran Co

pro - Catco does an excellent job of keeping my boat out on charter. That keeps the money coming in. Since I pay for everything, they tend to fix everything that is necessary in their opinion for charter.
con - If you want something or they promise to do something that is not necessary for the boat to meet its charter commitment...well don't hold your breath.
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Old 19-09-2007, 09:00   #765
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How are going to move to the BVI? If you are not a belonger, you will be very limited in the amount of time you can stay down there. There are many threads on this subject on TTOL, which I see you are also posting on.
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