420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[Intentional Drifter]

RE: Boat shows, I will also add this: Yes, you can ask questions, and get answers. As I have learned much to my displeasure, though, you can have no assurance that the answers you get will be the truth. You can be assured that the answers given will be oriented toward whatever they think will get you to write a check.

ID

[schoonerdog]

Missing the point. You don't question the catamaran manufacturer or their rep. You give a printed copy of your questions and comments to people who are walking into their display booth.

[libellula]

Question about rubrails on the lagoon
I really like the boat but have seen a number of Moorings with scrapes along the sides because of no rubrails
Since I like the boat so much, it almost seems petty to be so harsh about rubrails but....

Any ideas?

[Intentional Drifter]

Hee, hee, Schooner -- I'm afraid that if I was to be distributing my questions and comments to their potential customers, I would rather quickly find myself being escorted out of the show! And, perhaps, not too gently.

To libellua -- the 420 comes with rubrails from the factory. To my knowledge, the first Lagoon to do so. The bottom line, though, rubrails or not, nothing suffices as well as lots of good, well-placed fenders, and that's the skipper's responsibility.

ID

[libellula]

I am very excited to hear that factory rubrails are available. The Lagoon has many great features. Yes fenders are important but I have sail enough to know the drill. Rubrails help catch the unintentional.
By the way, I think there is an excellent article on the Lagoon in the last Lattitudes and Attitudes (?is that right). I usually do not get my info from those publications but I was really interested in that boat so I bought the mag.

[Intentional Drifter]

Yes, the 420 does have many great features. The accommodation spaces are unequaled in the 40 to 44 foot range and many even larger boats can't touch it. Be aware, though, that those accommodations come with a price and there is no magic. Be sure that you are willing to make those trade-offs and you will be happy.

ID

[libellula]

I really like the Lagoon for these reasons:
the cabin windows are vertical ( how is the headroom?)
the beds can be access from both sides
and the engines can be maintained from outside

now understand these questions are not meant to diminish Lagoons but are serious questions considering we are planning a circumnavigation
-lagoons are owner versions of the charter Moorings- are they quality built for serious offshore work
-are the vertical windows safe ( I like them because they answer the greenhouse problem plus they do not mar the vision from rain or other inclement weather
-does the access to the engines from outside still provide for the screws to be forward of the rudders
-are the rudders skeg mounted
-is there a seakindly pilot berth in the boat

I am moving Lagoon up depending on the advice received here and I must say I am excited to see these improvements

[shadow]

Hi ID, I am aware that a deposit is needed to start the build process, I just wasn't aware that you were that far along. I just kept assuming that you were still collecting data.. Also, when you gave the deposit and perhaps change your mind, what happens?? Do you get it all back, do you loose the whole thing or do you possibly get a partial return?? Just curious how that worked as well.

I'm curious if this actually happens more often then people expect. I would assume that a lot of people my get cold feet from their first initial deposit since it usually takes 8 months to sometimes 1 1/2 years from deposit day. Aside from cold feet, just in that time things can and do come up that will change people's plans and economic status. How true is this thought?? Cheers

[libellula]

wow
great questions

[Intentional Drifter]

RE: Windows, yes the vertical windows are very nice. I'm satisfied that they are safe. They are made of Lexan, so you have to be careful not to scratch them when cleaning, though.
RE: Engines. On the 420, the electric motors are NOT outside. They are under the aft berths.
RE: Lagoons/Moorings. No, Lagoons are not "owner versions" of Moorings. You must be thinking of Leopards. Many Lagoons do go into charter, though,and I have no doubt Moorings has some Lagoons in their fleet.
RE: "Quality Built", well, that's a matter of opinion. In some ways, yes, in other ways, no. I saw many things on the Lagoons I don't consider "quality" (e.g., poorly resined/tabbed bulkheads, large washers instead of proper backing plates, chafed electrical leads at the mast, "adequate" wiring practices, but not "excellent", poor locations of things like bilge pump filters, the before-mentioned rigging problems)
RE: Rudder and prop placement, on the 420, the prop is fore of the rudder, where it should be. The rudders are spade, no skegs.

There is no pilot berth. Neither is there a wet locker.

RE: Deposits, ordering, etc. I placed an order for a 420 in March '06 and put down a deposit of $20K. Without going into the gory details, I expressed many questions and concerns to my dealer on several occasions, but was convinced to remain with the order. I have not been at all happy with my dealer's lack of responsiveness to my questions. I have not yet had my deposit returned. We'll just have to see about how that works out. Neither have I been at all happy about the dealer's (or Lagoon's) responses to warranty questions or willingness to make changes regarding the boat.

Nothing has changed in terms of our plans -- we are still 100% committed to cruising, as soon as possible. Neither has anything (significant) happened to our economic status. The decision to change direction regarding the boat is based on the merits of the boat. Our feet aren't cold, by any means.

This is not intended to either encourage or discourage you from buying a Lagoon, but rather to give you some facts. You are ultimately responsible for your decisions. I do encourage you, though, to find out as much as you can and dispassionately weigh the unique set of compromises you will make in any boat you choose. Do not believe for a moment you can have it all in a single boat -- you can't. Is that big, spacious, high salon worth the windage it will exact, and the 5 or so degrees of tacking angle it will cost you? Only you can decide. Are those wide, spacious hulls with the big berths and space on each side worth the 2 to 3 knts of sailing speed it will cost you to get it (or the additional thousands it will cost you to increase the sail plan to compensate)? Only you can decide.

Choose well, for you, and you will be happy, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

ID

[DtM]

ID,

That is a very good synopsis of the decision making process.

It is all about comprimise.

I hope that whatever direction you take works well.

daniel

[shadow]

Thanks for that quick reply ID. I, by no means, was hinting that this was your situation with cold feet or economical. I have seen several dock of broken dreams in my area and that was after they purchased the boat and didn't do their research and such. I can just imagine for the average buyer, especially the motor yachts, that when they go to a boat show, they get really jazzed and with the sea trials, they are locked in.

Then they do an impulse buy on that boat. That is why I was asking how many people or know of people who may fall into that category that after have nearly a year to sit and think about it or perhaps they just happen to find another boat that they feel is really "perfect" for them. I would imagine that this is probably more common then I'm thinking..

I have noticed that the actual cruising crowd is much different in terms of skill, seriousness and commitment then most people on sporty motor yachts, in my opinion. Thanks again for sharing your experience with your purchases and sorry to hear about your dodgy broker mismanagement of people and accounts.

Cheers

[Adaero]

Warning long post!!!!!!!!!!
The project of buying a catamaran I have found to be one of the most difficult processes I have ever done. Buying houses, cars, businesses and other high value products in life pale in to insignificance compared to the cat buying process. My reasons for this statement are as follows: -
Finding impartial opinions. I don't know about you but I have never seen a bad test on any cat. Multihull magazine and all the rest of the press rely on thousands of pounds of advertising every year from the big manufacturers so the last thing they are going to do is slag off the latest offering by saying it’s a pig. The UK motoring press used to do the same but now they speak as they find. If the latest offering from Ford is rubbish they will say so. The motoring press will also do test comparisons e.g. An Audi A6 against a BMW 5 series and a Mercedes E class. You get the results of each test and how they compare to one another so you can then make a valid judgement for yourself. Imagine the marine press putting an Orana 44, Lagoon 440 and a Leopard 43 say, out on test together, same sea conditions, same wind and all with full tanks. That would be one test I would be interested in if they truthfully stated for example that one of them slammed on the bridge deck where as the other two didn’t.
Glossy Brochures and salesmen. I pride myself on being able to spot a bull s—t salesman from 50 paces but the marine industry seems to be very different. It seems you are being sold a lifestyle by them rather than the product itself. Every picture you see is of a boat at anchor in some stunning tropical bay with scantily clad women draped over them, you don’t ever see what the boat looks like in an F8 or 9. Note to self, imagine yourself on the boat at night in a rough sea, lashing down with rain, would I still like the helm position where it is?
Owners are biased. This doesn’t need explaining really as I will be exactly the same when my new boat is delivered. You will defend your purchase decision to the hilt, the only time you will make it public is if and when you get problems and you get no after sales service from the manufacturer or the cost of spares are astronomical. The best thread for a while on the board for me was the poll on “If money was no object what would you buy?” Yes, obviously Gunboat was way up there but I know the Admiral would beat me to a pulp if I sailed around lifting one hull at 20 knots all the time so for me and what I will be using the boat for the Gunboat is a non starter. What was interesting though were the opinions of the people who already had nice mid-range boats and what they would trade that in for?
Brokers. These guys will tell you they have sold every sort of cat on the market and normally have an opinion on each. They write up a sales add for a second hand boat they are brokering which reads like it’s from the best manufacturer of high quality boats. When you start talk about a new boat that they are agents for suddenly your told what a mistake it would be to buy a boat made by the second hand manufacturer as it will fall to bits first time it goes to sea! Who do you believe?

We currently have 9 cats in the mid 40’s range that are on our list, I have my favourites and the Admiral has hers. Some have been test sailed and discounted for some reason or another but remain on the list as a comparison. This list is from 18 months of researching data, reading forums like this, talking to brokers who supposedly know the market place, chatting with owners, talking extensively with sales reps and visiting numerous boat shows. After all of this effort I still spend most of my time changing preference from one boat to another after hearing a derogatory comment about a boat from all or some of the people listed above.
I have got to order some time and the decision is frightening the life out of me. The project started with great excitement and anticipation but that has slowly been replaced with apprehension. Our way forward was decided 3 weeks ago when we booked our trip to the Grand Pavois at La Rochelle. In 2 weeks time there will be 40 odd cats on show but unfortunately not every boat on our list. We will over the 4 days we are there reduce our list down to 2 boats, which might possibly include one boat that won’t be there. The remaining 2 will both be chartered for a week each in the BVI (or other) in November before ordering at the end of that month. I can then sleep soundly knowing that I’ve done everything possible trying to make the right decision.

ID, I know you are not looking for sympathy on your decision on the 420 but I applaud your openness about your decision as it help people like me trying to make our way through the minefield which is buying a boat.
Adaero.

[Moby Dick]

Adaero:
1) You will know a LOT more after owning a cat (or a monohull, if you were looking for one) than you EVER will from brochures, chartering, dealers etc. Why not get an older, second hand one to start with, and trade up when you know what you want?
2) It seems to me that cat buyers focus much more on accommodation, ‘party space’ and other aspects you can see at a boatshow than do monohullers: monohulls from H-R, Malo, Maxi and their like would get low marks for accommodation, but seem to be very much in demand. Some cat manufacturers try and satisfy the demand for accomodation by squeezing every bit of volume out of a given waterline length (plumb bows, nearly plumb transoms etc), irrespective of other factors.
3) Car testing is comparatively easy: a given piece of road stays pretty much the same, whereas the sea constantly changes. Even comparing three boats on the same day will only give you a rough comparison (because conditions will change between tests) of the boats under ONE set of conditions (ie a boat that performs well in light winds with no chop may be terrible in light winds with chop, or stronger winds etc etc)

There is no ‘right’ boat. There are only ones with a set of compromises that best matches your particular requirements at a particular time.

[libellula]

Another conundrum are the intertwine lineage of certain boats, similar sounding names and no lenghthy history on most catamarans. I agree that after awhile the process becomes laborious but I still maintain that a clear difinition of what your mission is will help (now be honest -will you actually do a circumnavigation or is it just a dream). Establish what will work best with your intended use and then look , charter , talk to folks and read (including this forum). I am getting closer and hope that Annapolis will short list my choices.