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Old 21-08-2007, 22:04   #676
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I like my tennis court at the back of my FP !!!

I am still surprised that Vicsail are not keeping you well informed. I had always understood it was one of their stregths.
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Old 22-08-2007, 00:37   #677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castleview
Hi DtM

I understand pin securing starboard shroud to chainplate was incorrectly secured.

I'd expect 420's to Oz would exceed 10 by now. Still the only cat builder to exploit accommodation possibilities of the enormous cat lengthxbeam cf badminton court deck area like FP et al.
That's interesting. I know of another where the rig came down. They have an unusual turnbuckle on the shrouds which came unscrewed in a very short period of time. I wonder if that's going to be a generic problem?
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Old 22-08-2007, 01:29   #678
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Is there no way to lock the turnbuckle?
Very strange and something you would expect the delivery staff to be well aware of.
I guess if they weren't aware before they will be now !!
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Old 22-08-2007, 03:54   #679
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All turnbuckles must be secured or "moused" (after rig tensioning/tuning) with safety wire, pins or rings.
Do not rely on the jam-nut only.

SAFETY METHODS FOR TURNBUCKLES:
http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/cours...-1B/CH7_10.pdf
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Old 22-08-2007, 09:08   #680
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I am still wondering if any Lagoon Owner can comment on why the 3200 lb weight increase on the Lagoon web site. Did the production boats come out heavier then expected? Is this a simple typo? They were stating the boat light displacement weight was 25,800 lbs. They now have it listed at 29,000 lbs.
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Old 22-08-2007, 10:52   #681
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To sum it up from what one can read in this forum about the L 420 one year after it has been launched:

Lagoon completely messed up the introduction of the hybrid-technology and used their customers as guinea-pigs. They are treating them in quite a desperate manner. Lagoon even changed the entire colours inside the boat not even informing their customers whether they prefer it that way.
They have not even been able to improve the sailing-abilities by adjusting the size of the sails to the weight of the boat within one year. Apparently they were not even able to calculate the weight of the boat beforehand.
Has that shipyard not even learned the basics of customer-care and marketing? I wonder whether they have a sales and marketing-departement at all or whether that job is done by the door-man or the factory...
Do they expect that they can keep it a secret that the boat does not perform - neither under sail nor under motor and sell the boat as long as no-one knows?
Funny enough on their website most of the pictures show the old colours in the cabins and not their new design (seems they don't like it themselves). And don't even try to find any further information on the new conventional diesel-version...

Strange.
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Old 03-09-2007, 19:01   #682
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Many, many questions and concerns are coming out about Lagoon's practices with the 420 and a number of owners/buyers are quite unhappy.

I know of three recent dismastings of 420's and another one of a 440 -- all apparently caused by sloppy work in the commissioning/rigging. Fortunately, no one appears to have been hurt in any of them, but one happened on the hard when a rigger was working on the boat. Even he didn't catch the poor work. Gord's response was correct - the turnbuckles weren't moused and even the jam nut wasn't properly tightened. They're darn lucky nobody was seriously hurt or killed, and that is just luck.

The fuel consumption reports are continuing to come out. More people are saying that it is using more fuel than expected (some, much more), with only a few saying that the consumption was less.

Sailing reports are also not very good. Most people are commenting that the boat is underpowered due to inadequate sail plan (however, given the dismastings, maybe Lagoon views this as a safety feature!).

I've seen one report from a recent owner on the new interior. It was seen as rather "cheap" with the "wood" (I'm not even sure you could properly call it that, as the links to the manufacturer seem to imply that it is some sort of compressed laminate) having no texture.

Even though Lagoon has been saying for months that they've worked on and resolved the issues with the genset, no one has seen in a live production boat that this is so.

The increased weight figures are a mystery. I know I've asked my dealer many questions about the boat, the weight, issues with the genset, fuel consumption, etc., but he won't answer my questions. Repeated, urgent requests have simply gone unanswered. If the weight differences cited were not all that much, that would be understandable. But, the boat wasn't a lightweight to begin with. Then, to have an unexplained 12% increase over an already heavy boat? I think that deserves explanation, but they won't.

In summary -- and I am truly sorry to have to say this, but integrity demands it -- I can no longer recommend this boat. While I continue to believe that the concept of hybrid diesel-electric systems are the way to go and we will eventually get there, Lagoon has been unable to do it. Yes, they promised they had it all worked out and said they've been testing the systems for years. Maybe they have, but all worked out? Obviously not. They got to me enough for me to send them a lot of money. Like Fox Mulder, "I want to believe". No more.

I'm now looking at other options.

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Old 04-09-2007, 00:30   #683
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From a brief look at a downed-mast on a 420, I don't think you can easily mouse the turnbuckles. They are totally different. They look more like big versions of the connectors on lifelines and provide no visiblity of how well screwed-on they are.
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Old 04-09-2007, 01:13   #684
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Hi drifter, what did you mean by sending them a lot of money?? Did you already send them a deposit?? Anyway, like you, we have spent tons of time researching and asking around about various cats and personal experiences and talked to brokers and read reviews. We too are very keen to have a cat someday that will have a flawless electric motor to we can truly be self sufficient and reliant from top to bottom.

But, we have had and heard too many bad things about the lagoon and too many inconsistencies with a topping of brokers being mum on the serious to the point questions ( such as the ones pointed out above).

We have totally moved on from lagoon and are now focusing on the privilege... But, I do appreciate any and all honest experiences and opinions. Cheers.
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:17   #685
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Has anyone read the reports on the new Outremer 42 Hybrid, very encouraging, they have 2 smaller gens, 1 for each motor, plus they have a new shaft drive system, fuel efficiency much better, lighter and all in all seems to work very well.
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:11   #686
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OT: The Broadblue 415 hybrid using the Ossa Powerlite system (with generator based on Mercedes Smart Car engine) is scheduled to be at the Southampton Boat Show next week.

It will be interesting to see if it is there and working
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:25   #687
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Shadow -- Yes, when you order a boat, they require a deposit.

RE: Ossa Powerlite system (aka Glacier Bay system); Yes, I've seen that on Tony West's e-Leopard and read Gosstyla's logs and materials on his custom build. (BTW, Gosstyla, a forum member, has done a fine job in documenting his build. I truly admire and respect what he is doing and the detailed honesty with which he is documenting it. Check out his website at: Main )

I have two serious concerns about the Ossa/Glacier Bay system: (1) Lack of redundancy (although Gosstyla has reduced this by installing 2 gensets) in the system. If your genset goes under, you are stuck with no auxiliary propulsion of any sort as well as no charging or AC system, unless you have installed some other means to charge your DC bank. (2) They seem to have had a dickens of a time specifying correct props for the system. Hopefully, this has been resolved. My other concern is simply one of experience -- to my knowledge, Tony's is the only e-Leopard out there, have they moved the development of this system from prototype to production?

It is encouraging to see other builders looking at diesel-electric systems. Who knows, perhaps with the (slowly) improving battery technologies, systems with battery banks like the Solomon and Lagoon models will become feasible, without the weight penalties. African Cats is doing it, but at a high price, beyond my means. Lagoon could do it, but they clearly haven't gotten the details worked out and, as we all know, therein lives the devil.

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Old 04-09-2007, 09:46   #688
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"no auxiliary propulsion .." Hmm well of course the engine is itself auxilliary to the sails, and monohulls only have one engine anyway, but I know what you mean. A small emergency genset for low speed 'get you home' use would seem he best back-up if needed.

i wonder why the prop selection is proving such a problem?
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:43   #689
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Lagoon will have a huge presence at the Annapolis Boat Show, with a lagoon 38, 420, 440 and 500. Had I unresolved questions, might be worth it showing up in person.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:51   #690
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IMHO a boat show is the worst time to ask detailed/issue questions.

(It is also probably the worst time to look at boats if you are thinking of buying!)
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