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Old 21-08-2007, 01:25   #661
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Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
Sure Frank, the Leopard 40 is a great compromise cat. Take your wife on the her, then bring her aboard the 420. She'll board the 420 and say, "Wow." Really no comparison if you desire to convince her to pack up the kids and sail around the world. The 420 accommodations are far superior. She feels like a comfortable condo.

$350K, is that a real delivered price? Not bad. As you cite, life is a compromise. A 2008 Lagoon with options will run you close to $600K.

I believe a diesel 420 will likely make a wonderful family cruiser. I am leaning towards going though with the purchase. Think about it, all that battery weight gone, folding props, the electrical issues non-existent, off we go in great comfort!

POTA, it can also be said that the Lagoon is a compromise cat as well, as it's performance has been seriously compramised by fitout weight.

It is sad to see people taken in by the glossy brochures and sales hype and I do feel for the ones that have been caught up in this mess.

Dave
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Old 21-08-2007, 04:39   #662
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Cat Man - don't go feeling sorry for people who don't need it. If there are people out there who were looking for a racer and bought a 420 then go ahead and feel sorry for them. If you're feeling sorry for me then your feelings are misplaced and it just shows how little you understand of the needs / requirements of those who are attracted to these boats.
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Old 21-08-2007, 04:39   #663
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Cat Man - don't go feeling sorry for people who don't need it. If there are people out there who were looking for a racer and bought a 420 then go ahead and feel sorry for them. If you're feeling sorry for me then your feelings are misplaced and it just shows how little you understand of the needs / requirements of those who are attracted to these boats.
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Old 21-08-2007, 06:37   #664
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ESS105, I agree with you, we all have our own individual needs, requirements, wants etc I have looked over a 420 and was impressed with the space, build quality and comfort etc but also at the time realised that she was not going to be lightening fast but a comfortable safe cruiser.
I think it is very difficult to find the right boat, I would like a cross between a Lagoon 410 owners version for layout, comfort, price and practicalities but the speed and design of an Outremer 42 without the dagger boards and bare necessities.

You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
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Old 21-08-2007, 10:28   #665
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Catman,

This has been a lot fun, no? Really, it's funny. Lagoon develops a hybrid cat that is supposed to help the environment but then fails to provide adequate sail area to keep her moving in light to moderate air, forcing the use of extra diesel. Is that good for the environment? They then design the system so that a huge genset is running nearly all the time. Is that good for the environment?

I blame myself for not spending more time analyzing the electric drive design. Lagoon had a good track record with high volume, reasonably sailing cats so I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, there was no way this system could run efficiently. Using a generator to charge a battery bank, then using batteries to power motors is very inefficient. Charging and discharging lead/acids is inefficient. It requires a big genset to run the charing algorithm which ends in a trickle. Then, add losses in the controlled ect., and you have a big loser. It seems the Lagoon engineers, if they used any real engineers, did not think this one through. You then must run your huge generator for house loads. More help for the environment?

I focused on the use of regeneration to charge batteries which, as far as I know, does not function on current models.

So, the 420 really isn't a compromise cat. The 420 makes no compromise in the comfort department. The design maximizes internal volume for a given waterline for a given price. It makes no compromise to fuel efficiency or sailing qualities. I still contend that the diesel 420 should make a fine 6-7 knot cruiser/motor-sailor for my family.

Dave, people with the financial resources to afford a 420 probably don't need a whole lot of sympathy. In the end it's all for fun. I still don't see anything out there with the comfort to price ratio of the 420. The falling dollar has made new cats very expensive to Americans.

The Lagoon 440, Dean 440, Orana 44 and Moorings 4600 would probably make better world cruisers, but would cost me an extra 100-150K. You gotta love the Fastcat 435. My wife still wants a Lagoon 500. I don't think we could handle that beast.

The manner in which Lagoon, and my broker, left me hanging, and then complained and treated me with contempt when I kept asking questions, stripped me of all loyalty and even the desire to protect my own investment. I am still leaning toward the purchase, but only because I signed for the initial preproduction price. Lagoon won't be making much, if any, profit on my boat.
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Old 21-08-2007, 12:27   #666
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One solution for the 420 is to pull off the rig.......pull out all the batteries, electrics, etc. and put in a couple saildrives It would make a REALLY nice power cat.
Then downsize the generator to run the house.
Another thing that might help is running all the main sail controls to the left side of the helm and replace the manual winch there with an electric. Route the left jib sheet to the manual on the port side. That would free the starboard side up a little for the reef lines, furler, starboard jib sheet, etc.
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Old 21-08-2007, 13:39   #667
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Lagoon is now offering a dual diesel 420 with an optional smalll genset. This was planned from the beginning. The price and options list is available on the Catamaran Co. website.

As I said before, she should weigh a couple of thousand pounds less than the hybrid, sail better with the huge, fixed props removed, and be very comfortable.

We simply want a comfortable, floating, mobile home to explore the world. There is no need to remove the rig. I believe Dignity crossed the Atlantic in less than two weeks. Why would you give that away?

Just because she has a low top end speed dosen't mean she can't make reasonable passages.
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Old 21-08-2007, 16:29   #668
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I ordered my diesel 420 in December 2006. Lagoon's secrecy about this option and their marketing decision to limit early 420 buyers to the hybrid option are both strategic errors, not to mention grossly disloyal to early customers. Initial impressions of this outstanding hull design are consequently overwhelmed by hybrid issues.

Sailing performance is another thing. The Lagoon 440 standard 70' rig has sail area of 1248 sq ft. A shortened 63' rig is offered with 1068 sq ft in main and genoa. This latter rig is presumably offered for charter vessels.

The 420's rig of 1054 sq ft is consequently similar to the shortened 440 rig and 420 sailing performance, given the similar weight of the boats, would be similar or slightly worse than the charter version 440. For perspective, the 12 tonne Moorings/Leopard 46 has a 1450 sq ft rig. While I fully endorse POTA's view that we buy 420's for comfort, not speed, I dont consider the 440 to be a speed machine.

Its puzzling that Lagoon haven't offered a 440 sized rig option for the 420. I will be v unhappy if this is another misguided secret.

Ken
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Old 21-08-2007, 16:38   #669
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It seems to me that (like the rest of the world) the Cat market in Australia is growing and growing fast.
The number of Cats at the Sydney Baot Show is good evidence of the increased range of choices.
I am surprised that Beneteau (Vicsail) are not more forthcoming with you with respect to the Lagoon 420.
Will yours be the first to land (float) in Australia?
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Old 21-08-2007, 18:01   #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
I believe Dignity crossed the Atlantic in less than two weeks. Why would you give that away?

Just because she has a low top end speed dosen't mean she can't make reasonable passages.
Where in the world did you get that info?
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Old 21-08-2007, 18:13   #671
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For the record, Dignity took just under 17 days to cross from Cape Verde to BVIs. No secret that she took a hell of a long time getting to Cape Verde.
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Old 21-08-2007, 18:13   #672
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For the record, Dignity took just under 17 days to cross from Cape Verde to BVIs. No secret that she took a hell of a long time getting to Cape Verde.
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Old 21-08-2007, 18:15   #673
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First 420 in Australia - minus rig lost in Brisbane/Sydney passage - was at the Sydney Boat Show. My boat is scheduled ex France December.
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Old 21-08-2007, 18:54   #674
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What happened to the rig? There was some interesting weather in the few weeks before the Sydney Show.

Do you know how many are coming into Australia?
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Old 21-08-2007, 20:39   #675
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Hi DtM

I understand pin securing starboard shroud to chainplate was incorrectly secured.

I'd expect 420's to Oz would exceed 10 by now. Still the only cat builder to exploit accommodation possibilities of the enormous cat lengthxbeam cf badminton court deck area like FP et al.
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