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Old 07-08-2007, 15:24   #631
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420

Badgerman, I could not agree more about everything you said about the 420. Oddly enough 4/20 is a day people celebrate marijuana, maybe the staff at Lagoon were smoking when they designed the helm. I also love the port winch, which does nothing. The electronics board is located so you need to sit on the steps with a flash light to read it. The freezer is next to the nav station, duh!!!! The 420 I was on only had one electric winch for the starboard sheets, pain in the ass. You had to keep switching winches from main to jib and back. Steve, no doubt as to comfort. I did use 60 gallons of fuel in 5 days without air conditioning. Yes, we specifically chartered a boat with A/C which was not installed yet. Last year we had twin deisels for 12 days and used 15 gallons total. With all the problems we had with the 420, the only concession the owner made was offering me a free sleep aboard the next time I charter, fat chance. I will stick with the twin deisels.
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Old 07-08-2007, 23:03   #632
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Sail2wind

What's wrong with having the freezer next to the nav station?

Chris
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:17   #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
I also love the port winch, which does nothing.
s2w - you sound like an experienced charterer. Have you never come accross a boat which has fittings for spinakers / genakas but not had the sail on the boat. It is fairly common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
The 420 I was on only had one electric winch for the starboard sheets, pain in the ass. You had to keep switching winches from main to jib and back.
No you don't. You had the choice to use the manual winches, two of which were right there. Sounds like you preferred to use eletric winches - your choice - not a problem with the boat.

s2w. You are clearly jaded by your experience. If I recall, you were on the boat within a very short time after her arrival in the islands and were on the boat before she was fully ready. Were you give the option of an alternate?
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:27   #634
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According to my Lagoon dealer, beginning in '08, the 420 will be available with twin diesels (saildrives). That should be good news for those leary of the hybrid design. My dealer said this was a planned development, but I wonder? Don't get me wrong ... In theory, the hybrid design is pretty exciting, but I'm leary of spending 1/2 million dollars on a pretty experimental design that may not have much advantage even when working well.

In other electric/hybrid news ... Maine Cat has spent 2 years designing & building a 38' power cat specifically for electric drives. During prototype testing this spring, the results were quite disappointing & they're now pulling them out to try conventional diesels instead.

Now with the option of hybrid or conventional diesel engines, the 420 could be a best selling catamaran. Keep all the comments coming, both good & bad! Comparisions to other 40' - 44' cats (Leopard, PDQ, Maine Cat, etc.) appreciated!

Russ
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:24   #635
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Steve, yes some owners own and store their spinakers at their charter company. The boat I was on did not have a spinaker. You still have port and starboard winches at the helm. The stand alone winch on the port side (away from the helm) could be rigged where your guest could help pulling sheets. As set up it was useless. Of course electric winches are easier to use, this boat only had one electric winch for the starboard sheets, non for port. I would say that was foolish or just plain cheap. There were no other boats available at TMM. Since this was an owners charter, not booked through TMM, they were not as helpful as they could have been. I don't think the owners were willing to give back the $$$ a few days before the planned charter. The boat admitedly (by the owners)was not ready for charter.
Chris, common sense of design and layout. The electrical panel is in a ridiculous place.
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:56   #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Of course electric winches are easier to use, this boat only had one electric winch for the starboard sheets, non for port. I would say that was foolish or just plain cheap.
Um, the boat is designed for single-handed operation. You'd only need an electric winch on the port side if you can't cross a sheet from port to starboard. Are you sure you rigged her properly?

The generator next to the owner's stateroom sounds like a real issue for those of us who live with air conditioning on at night. Might be a deal-breaker for me, but I'd like to hear some more feedback first.

Brett
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:37   #637
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positive, I don't think you understand the layout. There are port and starboard winches at the helm. Would you put your sheets on a starboard winch for a port tack? Have you seen or sailed a 420? Of course even with deisels, you need to run gen sets for A/C. Summer nights in the Caribbean can be oppressive without trade winds, even worse when it rains, which is often.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:07   #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Would you put your sheets on a starboard winch for a port tack? Have you seen or sailed a 420?
Yes, that is the usual arrangement. If on starboard, you can loop a bight of sheet around the port winch and cross to your electric winch. I haven't sailed a 420, but I have sailed a 410, which has the same single electric winch arrangement. Actually, I found it easier to use the autopilot to execute my tacks while I tended the sheets on their respective sides.

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Old 08-08-2007, 14:06   #639
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Design Constraints

Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
The electronics board is located so you need to sit on the steps with a flash light to read it. The freezer is next to the nav station, duh!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 420Hull58
Sail2wind
What's wrong with having the freezer next to the nav station?
Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Chris, common sense of design and layout. The electrical panel is in a ridiculous place.
Sail2wind

Now I get you. You're not saying there's anything wrong with the freezer being next to the nav station per se, but that the the electronics board should be next to the nav station where it's, presumably, easier to access.

I think you are not making allowances for design constraints such as length of cable runs, voltage loss and suchlike. Designing a boat is a mass of constraint, many of which aren't immediately apparent. Think of your average car and where the electronics boards are sited - usually under the hood (or bonnet in Brit-speak). Hardly convenient, is it? On some cars the designer ends up having to site them in some very obscure places. Sometimes common sense just doesn't work.

Don't get me wrong, there are several design choices on the 420 that I wouldn't have made, but then I don't have the full picture. It's all to easy to criticise, but we haven't been in the designer's shoes. Designing a cruising catamaran must be a great job, but far from easy.

Chris
L420 Hull 52, Octopus (only three weeks to go!)
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Old 08-08-2007, 21:26   #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Badgerman, I could not agree more about everything you said about the 420. Oddly enough 4/20 is a day people celebrate marijuana, maybe the staff at Lagoon were smoking when they designed the helm. I also love the port winch, which does nothing. The electronics board is located so you need to sit on the steps with a flash light to read it. The freezer is next to the nav station, duh!!!! The 420 I was on only had one electric winch for the starboard sheets, pain in the ass. You had to keep switching winches from main to jib and back. Steve, no doubt as to comfort. I did use 60 gallons of fuel in 5 days without air conditioning. Yes, we specifically chartered a boat with A/C which was not installed yet. Last year we had twin deisels for 12 days and used 15 gallons total. With all the problems we had with the 420, the only concession the owner made was offering me a free sleep aboard the next time I charter, fat chance. I will stick with the twin deisels.
Today we got the rocking horse therapy. The bow is overbouyant, and the
stern is dragging with batteries, generator, and who knows what all. Heading upwind on electrics is virtually impossible........ a ripping 3 knots dropping to 2 as the bow arced up and down what felt like 10 feet on 2-3 foot swells.

I would keep the big generator to run all the goodies and throw away the electric motors with associated batteries. Amen to the twin diesels.

Why make an engine which is running at a steady efficient rpm which is what happens when motoring in a standard twin diesel setup.......and screw it up by adding energy sapping generators, cabling, and motors?
Another aspect is the generator cycling on and off constantly.
I see lots of starters dying early.

As far as other design aspects.......rain is a killer.......runs off everything into the helm area. Just a few ridges and channels to route the wet away would be a welcome addition.

The winch aspect is just plain inconvenient and borders on dangerous........and I also admired the decorative port winch........surprised it wasn't electric just to further mystify.

This boat has a three reef setup in the mainsail.......must be expecting 100knot gales........the boat barely moves with everything full bore.

We had a great time on the 44.......this boat is nothing but hard frustrating work.

Tonight we docked and had a nice dinner.......plugged in and gave the generator and our ears a break. Came back and all the A/C is working
but in the owners suite.......

Will give further reports.......hopefully we can swap this tank out for something else
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Old 08-08-2007, 21:51   #641
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Wow, it's like deja vu all over again. What boat are you on? The drainage was horrible, my son's cell phone was on the shelf above the nav station, we opened the hatch and flooded the shelf, frying the phone. The rain came pouring in the salon doors. The steps going into the cabins were a slip and slide. The boat moves quite a bit for a cat at mooring. We had 2.8kts into wind and seas. What drove us crazy about the generator was when it shut off (which wasn't often) while you were motoring. The silent motoring, again which is not often, is very nice. Great comment on the decorative port winch.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:07   #642
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s2w - you keep forgetting to remind everyone you were told up front you were running on only one battery bank. Your speed, generator issues are likely to be all related. The 420s with both battery banks are motoring at 7 knots.

And an observation for both of you. Criticising the port genaker winch makes it look like neither of you have been on a boat before. Clearly you have which makes these comments look odd. I'm looking for useful feedback - when you criticize something as obvious as this I have to wonder how balanced the rest of your comments are.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:24   #643
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Steve, Not true, I was informed by email 2 days after I left and did not check email until I was back in the states. I never knew of diminished power. Do you think badgerman also is motoring one battery bank? I understand you are defending your 1/2 million dollar investment. Why could you not use the genaker on the port winch at the helm? I also would like to hear from other 420 charterers.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:40   #644
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Just a question: how would having just one battery bank effect motoring speed (other than reducing weight, and presumably INCREASING performance)?

Surely the genset would produce the current needed: the battery bank(s)just acts as a reserve to increase the time between genset runs.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:02   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Steve, Not true, I was informed by email 2 days after I left and did not check email until I was back in the states. I never knew of diminished power.
So I got the detail wrong but you did know when you made your recent remark. By not mentioning this key detail you are implying all the 420s run at this speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Do you think badgerman also is motoring one battery bank?
As you've mentioned it it's a hypothesis that fits the stated observations but that doesn't make it true. I don't see much mileage in debating this (unless he's on my boat in which case I'd like to know why). All I know is that I also have a number of reports of these boats motoring at 7 knots.
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I understand you are defending your 1/2 million dollar investment.
Obviously that is part of my motivation but I am also motivated by the sense that other thread readers are looking for more than one perspective on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sail2wind
Why could you not use the genaker on the port winch at the helm?
Couple of guesses. 1) to achieve the goal of bringing the main/jib/traveller sheets/halyards to a single point the compromise is that the helm is already busy. With the extra long lines these boats are shipped with this has already caused charterers (as we've seen with badgerman) some trouble (though not everyone). Another set of lines may be too much. 2) Think about where the port gennaker line has to run.
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I also would like to hear from other 420 charterers.
Fortunately I have which allows me to put your comments into perspective.
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